Bonygraph - Bony Chat

BITS & BOBS => Home owners advice line => Topic started by: Papillon on July 28, 2013, 13:12:13 PM

Title: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Papillon on July 28, 2013, 13:12:13 PM
Recent postings on this forum have highlighted the precarious state of the private property rental market in the Port.

Belladonna goes straight to the point:

Why do the media here not take the government to task? Why does it not challenge its line on rental accommodation? There is a scandal being played out. One of potentially massive economic harm and no one seems to dare to ask questions. Why?

Eleanor’s last paragraph says it all:

“The knock on of this is just crazy! None of us who love PP should have a smile on our faces as we will all be hit by this in my opinion. Plus of course how much will our property be worth if this is not challenged? I really feel this is a worry to all whether you rent with or without a licence! Do we want PP to become tired and run down? of course we don't - what the heck can we do about this?  ”

I believe there is so much we can do if we stick together as a group, encourage others to join and keep each other informed on the latest developments.

First of all I would like to make my position clear; I want to compete with the hotels on an even playing field and wish to pay the appropriate registration fee to obtain a rental permit, I also want to contribute my fair share of tax to help the Spanish economy. To some extent I could be doing this now as with 16 weeks of rental I could generate at least €500 per week to the local economy with client spending plus the additional support created by supporting the local infrastructure with use of laundry, cleaning and maintenance facilities. Multiply that by the number of apartment in Mallorca and we see the vast contribution property owners make to the island economy.

So where do we go from here. I think we need to fully understand the problem and the following links will give some background.


http://www.seemallorca.com/property/letting.html

http://www.seemallorca.com/property/letting/new-reform-on-the-tenancy-act-in-mallorca.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/10038701/Spain-to-clamp-down-on-private-holiday-rentals.html


This last article seems to add some perspective to the situation.

http://www.propertywire.com/news/europe/spain-property-holiday-lets-201305167790.html


Please feel free to add further historical links that may add to the understanding of the problem.

This whole situation is taking on “Ratner” proportions when a solution is within easy reach. Issuing property owners with a 2 year temporary permit with renewal requirement to show proof of income and tax paid would be a simple way to resolve the situation.

I am sure there are many other ways to stop this fiscal suicide, there just needs to be some sensible lobbying to clarify the law and help Spain back on its feet.

If you wish to contribute or just show support for this initiative please register with your screen name only on:

pollensapropertyownersgroup@gmail.com.

If you do not wish to use your primary email account please generate a gmail address.

Papillon


Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on July 28, 2013, 18:11:31 PM
I have moved this subject to this closed area as I feel that owners may prefer a little more privacy on this subject.  I hope you agree.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on July 28, 2013, 18:28:29 PM
Good idea Bella. This is a sensitive subject with varied views.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on July 29, 2013, 08:25:35 AM
I am not surprised at the uproar this is causing. Papillons wording, be it tongue in cheek or not, re the non availablility of obtaining a licence was a fair point.   

Is there a way of determining whether an apartment block is purely residential or not? There are large areas of separate blocks like Pinaret, would some be tourist and some not for example? I assume the only purely tourist rental blocks mentioned are Duva and Habitat?

Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: tonsyl on July 29, 2013, 09:06:14 AM
I'm not at all surprised at the way the "other place" is behaving, that forum has form for it. As I am not an owner I will not contribute for or against in this thread but I think blocks like Bellamar, Flora and Tamarind could also be "tourist" rated as are probably many of those on the front, one in particular comes to mind as a recent addition, the 4 or 5 above the re-built hyper market up toward the Humid.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on July 29, 2013, 09:15:16 AM
Perhaps more are being built now specifically for this reason?
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on July 29, 2013, 09:27:53 AM
Not sure of the answer to this question and some of the blocks are  the obvious as said Habitat Duva Flora. I wonder about the Taylor Woodrow blocks as I looked on their site on Saturday and it referred to rental income. I can't see to find it this morning??
I do know that a lot of the McCallum built blocks did have written in that no renting was allowed. This was clear and agreed to when people bought his blocks.

The problem I think is that many might have been 'mis sold. (Ok I will won't go on about estate agents! >:() We have had 2 friends who bought in different Macallum blocks to be told that 'everyone does it' and the wording was just 'a formality' to find that this wasn't the case. Both relied on the rental to keep the property and both ended selling at a much reduced figure. I am not suggesting McCallum mis sold. Most agents sell McCallum properties. Ok it could be argued that what is written and what you sign for is what is gold but the agents do need to take some responsibility as do (perhaps?) the lawyers in possibly not pointing out exactly what this all meant.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on July 29, 2013, 09:36:02 AM
Sorry I have just read the main thread and I have duplicated what others have said - apologies!

Another tourist block is The Leo apartments. Individual little units but with a main reception area. Must say though to find someone in the reception area is a task in itself! It is a little room with a few leaflets and other info around. It does has one though!  ::)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Papillon on July 29, 2013, 13:52:36 PM
This is my response to rainbow.

rainbow maybe I should take a little time to explain myself.

Spanish property legislation has always been a minefield of misinformation and dubious practices. Many owners on here will be fully aware of the Capital Gains tax scam that saw bundles of notes passed across the table in front of lawyers and bank managers whilst the notary left the room. My solicitor said this was normal custom and practice of splitting white and black money 80/20 or 70/30, what he didn’t say of course is that any new property owner was taking on somebody else’s Capital Gains should the system be stopped. This of course happened on 1st Jan 2007 when the Income Tax Act and Tax Fraud Prevention Act came into force which resulted in the Capital Gains tax being reduced from 35% to 18%.

At the time I was told that I had to obtain a permit to rent if I wished to let out my property to tourists, but was also told that nobody took any notice and that there had been no prosecutions as both Spanish residents and foreign owners continued to advertise their properties through local advertising agencies.

I was also told that there are many other areas where the apparent law has been ignored, from constructing buildings over the maximum number of floors to a villa owner who wanted planning permission for his swimming pool and was told it would be denied but build it anyway because if anyone notices there will only be a small fine.

So these were the custom and practices that were endemic throughout the Port.

Is it any wonder then that this grey market of private tourist rentals flourished.

But then the recession hit us all, particularly the hotel owners and registered letting agencies. So under pressure from this influential group an amendment to the law concerning Residential Tourism came into force in June 2013. This basically bans all short term rentals without a permit (they are not issuing any) both for non resident (foreign) and resident (mainly Spanish) property owners.
Recent press articles highlight the plight of Spanish property owners who, hit by the recession, are very concerned that the odd room they rent out to supplement their income will be subject to this law.

Now this is my problem, I believe this poorly drafted discriminatory legislation contravenes the European Charter. I don’t believe that any country within The EU can introduce such anti competitive legislation that so clearly discriminates against property owners who invested in the Country and who wish to exercise their right to earn a tax paid income from their properties. Nobody is asking to be treated as a special case but just that we have a level playing field.

What we need is a properly regulated private rental market that sits along side the established commercial market. One that regulates rental permits along the lines I have already eluded to and one that encourages full disclosure of income and tax paid. This has to be the bedrock to build the recovery not just for the Port but throughout Spain.

Just think Carol the ability to object to the issue of a rental permit because of noisy neighbours would certainly focus the mind of the offenders.

So what can be done, well I have asked owners to register their interest in the “Property Owners Support Group” by sending me a PM so I can add their screen name to the Gmail account I have set up.

Why? Because sometime soon there is going to be a test case and I believe it is in the interests of all of us to give support to the defendant. If it means contributing to a fund then so be it, if it means canvassing local businesses for support then so be it, if it means involving the local press then so be it. We cannot sit back and let this legislation go unchallenged.

So rainbow, in answer to you glib response, no I don’t think there are illegal renters but just property owners trapped in this death spiral that will destroy the heart of the Spanish economy, namely the tourist industry.

Papillon







Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on July 29, 2013, 15:25:42 PM
Two words; Spot On!
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Papillon on July 30, 2013, 08:59:11 AM
This is an interesting link that tries to explain the situation since the amendment in June.

Whilst it may be possible to rent on a " None Touristic Licence" the actual practicality seems vague as if you are advertising on a tourist website it would appear you would be shooting yourself in both feet.


http://blogs.angloinfo.com/angloinfo-world-property/2013/06/27/spain-unravelling-short-term-property-rental-laws/


It's also interesting to review the position of any local Spanish website that knowingly advertises rental properties without a touristic licence.

I believe most renters are pretty safe this year as most bookings would have been taken before the amendment and custom and practice over the previous 10 years or so turned a blind eye to the grey rental market.

I think commentators are right when they say the tax authorities are just compiling a register this year, it's what they do next year that worrying.

I shall be offering a service to trusted "friends" only next year on the understanding they pay a reasonable contribution to my running costs before they arrive.

It does appear though that, if it turns out to be true, any apartment block that does't have a lobby/ foyer/ reception area is regarded as "residential" is a further nail in the coffin.

Papillon
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on July 30, 2013, 09:22:59 AM
Thanks Papillon. One thing that crops up that I am not totally sure about is the word "services".  What exactly does this include that should not be given?
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: favie on July 30, 2013, 09:40:33 AM
Reading all sorts of information on the web at the moment, here is one that mentions services ...

http://www.spain-holiday.com/rentalbuzz/latest-on-the-new-holiday-rentals-law-in-spain
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on July 30, 2013, 09:47:00 AM
Thanks favie, some other good links within the link too!
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Bonyslad on July 30, 2013, 09:54:55 AM
Thanks Papillon. One thing that crops up that I am not totally sure about is the word "servicecs".  What exactly does this include that should not be given?

It means you have to don a uniform , Bella, and set up a desk at your front door and sit there 24/7 !!!!

 There probably will be a bit of a cooling off period this year but be very careful of advertising particularly on giving contact addresses etc . I think most Communities in order to protect themselves will seek indemnities from owners who try and breach the rules and advertise . It would be galling to receive a community fine if you were solely a resident and, these folk, I'm sure will be trying to get the practice stopped.

 BL
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on July 30, 2013, 10:40:56 AM
Doom bringer!  :(
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Pansy Potter on July 30, 2013, 10:47:32 AM
A few residents in our block who are Spanish rent out apartments to tourists themselves , unless its another rule for them !!!
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Papillon on July 30, 2013, 11:28:09 AM
Belladonna I think they mean you can't include laundry services and bundle up your gas elect etc, these have to be paid by the renter just like long term rentals in UK

I put another link on my previous post. Sorry have removed that as favie has provided the link
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on July 30, 2013, 11:50:47 AM
It also means that you are unable to 'provide' cleaners and gardeners etc. Basically what you are providing is just the key!

As for a different rule for the Spanish, Pansy - I wonder if we can include residents too? Are non residents treated differently? emm I wonder?  ::) I thought Europe was Europe  - it does seem that sometimes Spain is Spain but might be in Europe if it so fits!
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on July 30, 2013, 12:00:30 PM
So if it was stated that  cost for a/c one week = £100 for example, then it was added separately to the overall cost, this would be acceptable?  I know its just a tiny part of a huge problem, but perhaps chipping around the edges will help to give an overall picture.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on July 30, 2013, 12:34:28 PM
From the way I read it, you would need to be very careful and the less said the better! I understood from one article I read that you were not to include anything like gas, electrcity etc etc which would include a/c too i'm sure. The renter would be responsible for supplying and paying for their own. When I say supply I am referring to the gas bottles etc. which will not be relevant to everyone. In a short term tenancy agreeement, if that is what you mean - the more basic you leave it the better in my opinion from how I understand it. I could of course be completely wrong!
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on July 30, 2013, 12:43:48 PM
Not sure how they would do this of course as bills would not be in their name. I wonder if a separate invoice for the cost of such things would be suitable but would that too be considered a service? I suppose that might be another way of them assessing if it is a short term tenancy agreement or indeed a tourist rental made out to look like a short term. One article suggested that a short term has to have set dates so a starting date (obvious I suppose0 and either a leaving date or left blank with ongoing up to one year! That in itself is dodgy! Can you imagine trying to get a holiday weeker out if they decide to saty for longer?? I suppose you are covered here though as you state the weekly rental rate. They won't want to pay the same in the winter months!  ;D

This is a minefield!  ::)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on July 30, 2013, 14:37:35 PM
May think about renting out a tent in Formantor. Just the tent, no services!  ::)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on July 30, 2013, 16:15:25 PM
Yes but remember you can't put the flipping thing up for them! That might be classed as a service!  ;D
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: tonsyl on July 30, 2013, 16:16:19 PM
Eleanor, only Britain does exactly what Europe wants, Spain, Italy and a few more do the bits they like and ignore those they don't. Ever was, ever shall be!
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Bonyslad on July 30, 2013, 18:21:48 PM
Eleanor, only Britain does exactly what Europe wants, Spain, Italy and a few more do the bits they like and ignore those they don't. Ever was, ever shall be!

Thank you Nigel !!

BL  ;)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: tonsyl on July 30, 2013, 18:27:32 PM
Nigel, Nigel, who the ***** Nigel ?
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Katiesmum on July 30, 2013, 18:35:43 PM
Just working Nigel out, do you mean Farage BD??? ;D
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Katiesmum on July 30, 2013, 18:38:31 PM
Sorry BL not BD, wrong person, silly me!! :D
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: tonsyl on July 30, 2013, 18:38:59 PM
Got a family thing going here BL, my mouthpiece is speaking for me..........women!!!
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Papillon on July 30, 2013, 18:39:39 PM
Just had a request for a booking in October from a Mallorca couple who want my 3 bed apartment for 10 days with just them as guests. This is the first time that I have ever had a request from a local family.

This was my response:

"Hi Juan, unfortunately due to the change in the law in June 2013 I am unable to offer my apartment for rental until I obtain a Touristic Rental Permit. At the present time these are not being issued so I cannot to let my property legally so I have only been able to offer friends and family use of it this year. I have left the advertisement for the reference of those friends as I get no rebate for cancelling.

It is a very difficult situation with possible fines of €20,000 for those found to be in breach of the new regulations.

Sadly this will have a devastating effect on the local economy and this legislation has been driven by the hotel and apartment hotel owners who feel there is unfair competition in these times of recession.

This seems a very strange way of trying to generate taxable income for the local economy but my hands are tied.

Until I have clearer picture of my legal obligations I not be able to offer any sort of rental service.

Kind Regards"


Dear Bella am I being a little paranoid!

"Frustrated from Felixstowe"
 


Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: favie on July 30, 2013, 18:56:21 PM
I can understand your frustration Papillon....the whole thing is just plain crazy. Like many of us, I have read many articles on the web, some saying carry on as normal until the end of the year and others reporting owners being fined thousands of euros already.....makes no sense!
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on July 30, 2013, 19:16:34 PM
What a shame Papillon! This is causing such problems to so many isn't it. A loss of revenue and a lovely holiday. Did Juan respond I wonder?

BL who is Nigel??? Am I a little slow here? Or is it a Bony quiz?   :)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Bonyslad on July 30, 2013, 19:24:18 PM
Eleanor,

 Obviously you , like me , didn't vote for UKIP  !!!

 Papillon ,

 Probably wise decision to reject the booking as I hear from folks out there that the Tourist Gestapo are out in force at present . Really think you should advise the folk in the other place that you have done this .

 Bella,

 Do we need to close this down to members only ?? Might be the only place this get's aired for obvious reasons .

 BL  :( :(
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Katiesmum on July 30, 2013, 19:30:49 PM
Shame upon you BL, it's the only way to go, right out of Europe and back to Great Britain. (Good job this is a free speech forum)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on July 30, 2013, 19:50:32 PM
Just found this on MJC associates newsletter - it gets worse!

ENERGY CERTIFICATES
The new law is quite clear - if you wish to sell or rent your property you need such a certificate which we can help you to obtain. I have not heard of anyone being fined for not having a certificate but as the government needs the cash - no doubt the pressure will increase.

sorry folks - best we know I suppose!  ::)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on July 30, 2013, 19:52:47 PM
Eleanor,

 Obviously you , like me , didn't vote for UKIP  !!!


Ahh that Nigel!  ::) Heard the name once ...........!  ;D
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on July 30, 2013, 20:06:35 PM
Shame upon you BL, it's the only way to go, right out of Europe and back to Great Britain. (Good job this is a free speech forum)


Lol - wish we had a 'like' button!  ;D
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: favie on July 30, 2013, 20:16:01 PM
" like"  ;D
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Papillon on July 30, 2013, 20:17:40 PM
Eleanor

So let me get this straight if I wish to rent I must apply for an energy certificate and I will then be entered on a  database along with my NIF number.

The noose is getting tighter.

Bony I would love to but I don't want to be identified by my post if the request is from the Taxation Taliban.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on July 30, 2013, 20:31:39 PM
Yes Papillon that seems to be correct! To rent or to sell you now need yet another licence/certificate and yes I suppose that will mean some sort of database - big brother is working very hard at the moment!  >:(

I wonder how much money this will cost? Really getting fed up!

As for the other subject I did wonder why suddenly a local was making contact re a booking - this is becoming very uncomfortable!
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on July 30, 2013, 20:56:49 PM
By the way Papillon.  Did you try to cancel your advert and got refused for a reimbursement?
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Papillon on July 31, 2013, 07:59:10 AM
Bella I have suspended my advertising and will be taking no bookings until I can guarantee my clients holidays. I can't accept deposits knowing I may have to cancel at the last minute leaving guests high and dry.

It appears the law is not denying the owners the right to offer their properties for rental. What it is saying is that if you qualify as a Touristic Rental, and after obtaining your energy certificate and permit to rent you will be allowed to compete on equal terms with apartment hotels.

So it it is quite clear the sticking point is the definition of a Domestic Rental and Touristic Rental property.

As I said before from what I have read a Touristic Rental property has to conform to the standards of an apartment hotel and have a lobby area so the vast number of apartments will not qualify.

Can this definition be challenged, maybe, but there seems to be a groundswell of support for this requirement.

The question now is can any website accept advertisements from apartment owners knowing full well they do not comply fully with the statutory requirements and will the website have to publish a disclaimer of liability to protect themselves from accusations of aiding and abetting an illegal activity.

It has been said on the other thread that the good times are over, be thankful that we have been able to generate an income in the past but it does now appear that the gravy train has well and truly hit the buffers.

Finally can I just say how refreshing it is to be able to post on a forum that can discuss opposing sides of an issue without descending into the mud slinging so prevalent on many sites.



Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on July 31, 2013, 08:40:52 AM
Thank you Papillon, that is exactly why Bonyslad started up this forum.

Can I also just say again, that if there is any post or part of post that anyone feels can  be of benefit for open viewing, please do post it on the open thread.

There does not appear to be any more gossip from the port at the moment. No one that I know of appears to know directly of anyone who has been fined yet, and it is suspeected that the inspectors are visiting places where they have been denounced by the community they are in rather than what they have found themselves at the moment.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on July 31, 2013, 09:16:39 AM
Well that is better news! Maybe they are just collecting info to use next year who knows! what does leave a nasty taste is the word denounce! It implies neighbour against neighbour and that usually equals trouble. I really hope that if anyone does have any issues they speak or contact the person first before denouncing them. I think it should be remembered too that people DO rent their property to family and friends - it REALLY does happen - so if anyone does have any ideas then lets hope if they decide to denounce that they have thie facts right!  :-X
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: andrew711 on July 31, 2013, 14:06:15 PM
Yes, you can rent any property out, so long as it is not advertised as a tourist property and so long as no services are provided. But the point is that most apartments are advertised and promoted in this way. Having a reception is only part of this, but if a block had a reception and if, by some unlikely turn of events, that block could then qualify as "tourist apartments", then no one could live in an apartment full time on a residential basis. It won't ever happen. This said, there are, it seems to me, the odd anomaly. Anyone familiar with Siesta 1 apartments in Alcudia will know what I mean, because people do live full time, yet it is a licensed tourist apartments building. The other two Siestas, despite having receptions, are not meant to have tourist rentals but they of course they do.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on July 31, 2013, 17:17:13 PM
Siesta 2 certainly did.  A bit of everything there.  Good old, simple living days back then, and it's probably not changed much as they have survived!  ::)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on August 06, 2013, 10:02:02 AM
 Engels and Volkers seem pretty solid and helpful estate agents. Anyone heard of bad experiences from them?
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on August 06, 2013, 13:43:36 PM
Oh my favourite subject!!  ::)

Engels and Volkers are franchised now. I haven't heard good or bad so I suppose that might be considered good!  :)

My friend put her apartment on the market yesterday with Balearic Properties although I don't think she was overly impressed. Usual story - if you are selling then things are awful and don't think you will get your price. If you are buying then get in there quick as prices are going up!

My thoughts are the obvious. Property agents help to control the market and can talk a market up or down. My son is still on the books of another agent run by a German lady  (can't remember the name) and each week he is receiving emails - 'bargain property - put in an offer - low offers considered' This to me is disgusting and while we can appreciate it to be estate agent talk it does little to gain confidence and certainly little for the market. I think if you know roughly what your property is worth or rather what you might like then go for it. You can always come down but going up is much harder!

Remember also that there is a 5% commission to be paid to the agent too. A heck of a lot of money!  >:(
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2013, 18:05:48 PM
A friend has just forwarded me a copy of an email she received from a well know PP estate agent. This same agent was selling property based on it's rental income not so long ago. Infact my friend bought from this agent who produced a month by month summary of expected rented revenue. How the tide has turned! My point made earlier is the same. If these agents sold apartments based on revenue expectations and a few years back, cheap mortgages then to me it is obvious the outcome.  As Bella said in a post elsewhere, some may have known and took the risk but in my view many many had no idea at all. It is easy to be tricked when sales commissions of 5% are involved! I wonder how many properties these agents will have on their books now?

Good afternoon,

Sorry for not answering before.

The new lawer about rental is saying –

Apartments you can rent out for long terms-

6 month or one year.

Holiday rentals  2 weeks or 3 weeks are finished.

My accountant told me there are already inspections

In Alcudia.The fine is supposed to be very high.

This happened all because the hotels have been half

Empty.

If you are owner of a chalet or a Finca there is no

Problem for rental.

For further questions you can contact me at any time.

With kind regards

I haven't included the name of the agency or the agent as this email was sent to my friend and not to me.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Papillon on August 16, 2013, 12:21:43 PM
I have put this on the other forum to try and generate more support.

Thanks Eleanor and Sparky for those articles.

The staggering impression is that nobody from any of the interested parties have sat down together and come up with a workable plan that will secure the future of the island, allow fair competition amongst all providers of holiday accommodation, and generate the much needed tax revenue.

I believe many property owners are hoping the issue will fade away and things will quickly return to normal. It will not and as the estate agent has made it quite clear:

“Holiday rentals 2 weeks or 3 weeks are finished”

It may be that the only option is to take action ourselves and to threaten to withdraw all touristic rental properties from the market next year to force the issue. One would hope that if word of such an initiative gained publicity then it would focus the minds of the parties involved.

We have enormous financial clout if we can somehow stick together, we know there are powerful and influential groups on our side.

What we don’t want see is owners facing crippling fines because of ignorance of the Touristic Rental Legislation.

I have set up an email account at:

pollensapropertyownersgroup@gmail.com

If you feel strongly about this issue please register with your screen name using an appropriate address if you do not wish to be identified. All will be in the strictest confidence.

Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on August 16, 2013, 12:51:39 PM
My response on the other forum


Good points papillon and I see where you are coming from regarding the withdrawing of rental property from the market. The fact is though that legal or not legal many many people just can't afford to not rent. Ok we hear the usual - you shouldn't have bought if you can't afford without rentals but the fact remains that our dear friends the estate agents made a heck of a lot of money selling based on potential rental revenue. I think there will be many people put into the position of having to rent illegally. There are going to be lots of renters with lots of friends next year!!

I wonder if there is a similar response through out other areas of the island? Pollensa of course is a small place and it would be interesting to know if a storm is brewing on other forums especially in the Santa Ponsa area and Cal a Dor. I wonder too about other nationalities and their response.

It will be interesting to see how this will sort itself out. I'm sure revenue must already be down on a few rental sites where people have suspended or cancelled their advertising.

There will also be those, besides the hotels, who may be clapping their hands together pleased that this is happening. I hope those people doing the clapping don't own property or a business related to the tourist industry as the knock on is obvious to see.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on August 17, 2013, 10:34:14 AM
Can someone find me a link, or give me the full lowdown on selling costs through estate agents please.  I know its quite expensive and would like to have some background knowledge before we start negotiations.  I can't find a comprehensive link anywhere at the moment!  ???
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: girlie in the corner on August 18, 2013, 07:51:57 AM
Bella, as far as I'm aware, agents don't negotiate.  Its usually 5% (extortionate I know).  I know someone said on here that agents must be rubbing their hands in glee.  I think the opposite.  If the chances of anyone buying is that low, they're all going to go bankrupt.  I really do think its too early to 'knee-jerk'.  Rental of apartments is still allowed.  Its just advertising that's not!  And someone will find a way round that, they always do!  ;D
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on August 18, 2013, 09:04:52 AM
Bella it is 5% payable to the agent one actually is charging 6% I have yet to find an agent who will negotiate in any market. On top of that you will have sales tax and other associated fees. When you buy you expect to add on 10% for costs and you won't go far wrong if you work on 10% for selling too. Anything less will be a bonus. We have already seen some agents go over the recent times. No doubt others will follow. Only the best will survive or those with interests elsewhere or throughout the island generally. Remember the top end of the market millions upwards is still a very busy market especially nearer to Palma. What is happening here is of no consequence to them as just not relevant. Girlie it isn't just the advertising which is not allowed. It is renting any apartment without a tourist licence for anything less than a short term agreement. This is very different to renting to the tourist market.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on August 18, 2013, 10:26:59 AM
Thanks to both of you.  You are right girlie. I did originally say that I thought estate agents would be happy, but obviously they need both ends of the market to work in order to survive.  This is such an ill thought out practice they are trying/have brought in!  I have to admit my head is spinning about the legality of renting but the non legality of advertising. I have a blind spot on how one can work without the other!  As you say, someone will work it out somewhere, I just hope they will share their brainwave!  :-\
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on August 19, 2013, 15:42:28 PM
Just heard from a friend with a town house. It was bound to happen wasn't it! :( can I just give a warning that there are companies and individuals popping up claiming to be able to sort out obtaining a licence. My friend paid his  Money up front and you've guessed - never to be found or heard of again! :(
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on August 19, 2013, 16:45:31 PM
How very annoying for your friend.  So frustrating when you trust someone enough to pay upfront, only to be let down big time!  I do hope not much money was lost.  Always someone ready to make a profit out of a crisis!  >:(
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: favie on August 19, 2013, 19:35:00 PM
Shocking Eleanor.....another scam for people to be wary about, just one thing after another at the moment....Oh, bring back the good old days!

PS out of interest does PP.com still have it's private forum for owners that was set up awhile back?
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on August 20, 2013, 08:30:44 AM
Yes they do.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: favie on August 20, 2013, 18:28:35 PM
Ah! No....just found it under Admin, PP.com Rental Advisors (for owners).

The comment on "that" post did make me ask!  ;) Knew it did have a private one of some sorts!!


Thank you Green-fingers. enjoy they peppers. :)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on August 20, 2013, 22:45:22 PM
Things have to get pretty big and hot to be interesting favie!  :o ;)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: favie on August 21, 2013, 07:51:27 AM
The bigger and hotter the better.....so I believe! :)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on August 23, 2013, 10:02:17 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From  Ultima Hora today;


Quote;


The Government shall regulate a part of the tourist accommodation rentals
The socialist challenge the PP and claim that if you can not solve the problem it created, will your solution

The Government has already taken the 'political decision' to regularize part of tourist homes that have been outlawed in Tourism. Another thing is how repositioning staged.

As this newspaper has learned several alternatives being considered, the most consistent seems to be an executive order, although no decision will be made official until the vice president and the Minister Delgado Gomez have heard mayors and representatives of the consells. Today will have the chance.

The meeting today and Delgado Gomez maintain municipal representatives and consells be short, if one looks at the provisions of Executive: one hour. That seems to indicate that the government has already decided what to do.

Negotiation"The Government will listen to all parties involved to try to reach consensus on the most tourist homes," said Congresswoman Lourdes Bosch yesterday, spokesman for Tourism PP parliamentary group.
"The PP does futuribles about what might happen, and knows that he touches now sit, listen, and based on which a decision is spoken."

Other sources of the parliamentary group insisted that the final proposal "will of the Consulate", ie the executive who will present the initiative to be.

From PSIB, Jaume Carbonero and Bel Oliver, Carlos Delgado accused of "creating public alarm" with tourist law, they said, "only dealt with the hotel accommodation."

The Socialists, if the Government does not have an alternative "to fix the problem they have created" plan to bring to the full Parliament a series of proposals that, yesterday, refused to advance.
"They have to give the first step and if you do not know, they should say so and I will give you our solution," said Carbonero after an appearance before the media.

The PSIB Delgado inquires with the Minister as soon as session resumes. For socialists, the best thing would be a modification of the Tourism Act.
The Socialists want to take this opportunity to "members of the PP are portrayed in a vote," as Oliver. From PSIB insists that the standard has caused great discontent among municipal leaders of the PP.
From Tourist merely reflect yesterday that "you will hear the petitions and following decisions will be made then."

ConcernThe Chamber of Commerce of Mallorca, who chairs Joan Gual, qualifies all this controversy "fruit of social pressure, so it's more of a civil matter, hence the Government should take action that solves the problem of rent tourist homes located in apartment buildings in one way or another. "
The Estate Managers Association says the Balearic Tourism Act "criminalizes right now the owners of such housing. 


Unquote.

Ok. with my brain being befuddled by translations, am I right in thinking this is a load of nothing?  ???
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on August 23, 2013, 10:31:09 AM
Seems like that Bella. I think it is their way of letting us think they are listening but that doesn't mean they are hearing.  ::)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on August 23, 2013, 23:50:58 PM
I hope its not a case of just going round in circles, this is a subject that cant afford the usual years and years debate surely!
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on August 24, 2013, 00:29:12 AM
Back to square one it looks like.  >:(

In the DDM today;


 
Govern, Consells and municipalities agree not to modify the Tourism Law

The Minister of Tourism and Sports, Carlos Delgado, said that "the consensus right now is that you have to change the law."
23.08.2013 | 17:03
diariodemallorca.es / Efe. Palma The Government, the consells and municipalities of the islands today agreed not to amend the Tourism Act in relation to the regulation of tourist rental of holiday homes, because they understand that it does not prohibit this type of leases but the regularized .

The Minister of Tourism and Sports, Carlos Delgado, said that "the consensus right now is that you have to change the law", since neither the regional rules or national urban lease "have not changed anything at all" , in relation to rental multi-family housing, which is still prohibited in the case of tourism services also marketed.

Delgado has made these statements after the meeting held for two hours, with Vice President of the Government and Minister of the Presidency, Antonio Gómez, with the presidents and representatives of tourism of insular councils of the Federation of Local Authorities of the Balearic Islands (FELIB) and several municipalities on this issue.

The minister has made it clear that for now it was decided by all that it is necessary to amend the General Tourism Law, which since its adoption in July 2012 has allowed 4,500 homes legalize residential tourism throughout the archipelago, compared to the 5,000 that had been regularized in twenty years.

This large number of legalization has been possible, Delgado explained, because the law expanded and loosened these rentals, and now even you can rent for tourism paired and single-family homes on rural land not previously allowed.

He clarified that the Balearic Islands citizen who wants to rent your home for a day, week or month can do with a contract from the urban lease law "perfectly", as it could make for "one year" or "fifteen "and what is forbidden for them is the exploitation and pipeline services and tourism portals, such as was not allowed before.

Delgado has stated that it was and is still illegal multi-family rental, ie "flats and apartments with exploitation and tourist channeling", as agreed on with the consells and municipalities at the time of passing the law last year.

It detailed that after today's meeting, it was decided to continue the case, but that the Government "did not govern against the interests of an island and in the interests of another."

In this regard, he stated that "if one day some island want to change the type that may be susceptible tourist rental (multi-family, single family, detached, etc.) will make the island, not to go against the interests of another" , through a law or regulation Island Territorial Plan (ITP), once every consell has ceded management and tourism promotion, except that of Mallorca.

During the meeting, Ibiza and Formentera consells have shown "strongly" against changing the current system of residential appartment while Mallorca and Menorca (whose president was unable to attend the meeting) have left open possibility.

"We will not impose a system to Ibiza that maybe wants to Mallorca and if ever some island wants out of this system, it seems is what you want most, is the consell which will change the system of building to suit the interests of the island itself, but the Government will not impose any a typology that does not, "he insisted.

According to Delgado, on this issue has led to confusion and unnecessary controversy and said that the Chamber of Commerce of Mallorca is in favor of the legalization of such rents, while Ibiza is shown against .

He pointed out that inspectors now are busier tourist in hotel beds regularize that checks in the leases of holiday homes, which are held as no complaints from neighbors.

Delgado said that an estimated 9% of the tourists coming to the islands tourist apartments are housed in illegal housing.

Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Papillon on August 24, 2013, 08:36:52 AM
It's not surprising that different islands want different things and I get the feeling the 9% is not representative of the accommodation on Mallorca but we are bound to see the figure vary widely depending on who is providing the data.

Lets hope that this is still the beginning of the consultancy process and not the end.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on August 24, 2013, 10:13:06 AM
Andrews blog is still downbeat on the subject too;

The Sham Of Consensus: Holiday lets


So there we were, thinking that the Balearic Government's tourism ministry had seen the light and were about to announce some relaxation in rules regarding the renting of private apartments for tourist purposes. A consensus was being sought with town halls and the islands' councils. The meeting was planned to last only one hour, suggesting that the ministry had already come to a decision. It seemed promising, but it did of course prove to be nothing of the sort. Consensus? Not when you've already made your mind up.

Carlos Delgado, the tourism minister, argues that the 2012 tourism law has already relaxed the situation regarding private accommodation rental. He's right. It has in that it has been possible to register more houses for rental than was previously the case. But not apartments. These remain outside the law if they are being commercialised, e.g. advertised via websites as tourist accommodation. He says, and he is right, that the tenancy act allows the rental of accommodation just so long as it isn't commercialised, which is a fat lot of use for those who need to be able to advertise.

Claiming that there is a consensus is simply untrue. For a kick-off, this is not a consensus that has involved discussion with business sectors (other than the hoteliers). Secondly, of the islands' councils, Menorca's president wasn't at the meeting; Menorca had, prior to the passing of the tourism law in 2012, been pressing for a more tolerant approach. Thirdly, it is known that there are municipalities in Mallorca where the mayors do not agree with the government - Pollensa, Manacor, Santa Margalida, Andratx.

Delgado says that the island councils will be able, if they wish, to make some changes to regulation. This is because they are to be given responsibility for tourism promotion. But tourism promotion does not mean tourism accommodation. It means what is says - promotion. That is what is contained in the statute of autonomy. What would be required would be a change to islands' land plans, and these, as anyone can tell you, take years to work through the political bureaucracy, are altered when a new government comes in, are then re-altered, are blocked by legal challenges. Nothing, therefore, is likely to change, even if an individual island council wanted change. Menorca might, but it is unique. Ibiza is against change, while as for Mallorca, well the president of its council doesn't want any responsibility for tourism promotion.

Moreover, the notion of one island opting to regulate in a different way to others has in-built failure written all over it. To administer a separate regulation would require resources, which the councils do not have. A way of setting a budget would be through funding allocation via the cross-island commission (it is going to have to look at how funding for tourism promotion is decided), but if you have islands against change and another in favour, there is a recipe for failure.

If tourism promotion is being held up as the potential way out, then one now sees Salom's objection in a very different light. Was she pre-warned of this? Doubtless, she would deny it, but as she doesn't want the council to have responsibility, then it stays with the regional government. It all sounds a bit convenient and a means of avoiding conflict with the big guns of some business sectors.

Delgado's announcement is a total sham. He is talking rubbish, and he knows he is. As usual, people are being taken as idiots. Well, let's find out who the idiots are when or if tourism declines because apartments are taken off the market. It's a disgrace.


Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on August 24, 2013, 10:36:09 AM
Is this the final meeting on the subject by the powers that be do you think? Or is there still any hope of a change?  :-\
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Papillon on August 24, 2013, 11:26:23 AM
A superb hard hitting article by Andrew but the big question remains.... where do we go from here?

Will we see prosecutions next year as many I am sure are totally unaware of the more entrenched attitude being taken towards the commercialisation of properties?

Can websites still take advertisements from owners knowing full well by doing so will criminalise them?

Many have bought into the dream of owning a holiday home in the Spanish sun and now, with falling property prices and very little chance of selling a property that cannot generate an income, they find that dream turning into a nightmare.

Sadly, the whilst wheels of government and local government are stuck firmly in the mire of indifference, politicians with questionable motives are prepared to stand back and see the destruction of a well established tourist industry that has seen the island flourish for so long.

Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on August 24, 2013, 12:34:44 PM
You are so right.  If its illegal to advertise, then is it also illegal to take adverts? Another big concern for all the Property Management companies and Forum owners.  It just goes on and on.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on August 24, 2013, 13:55:13 PM
Good point Bella. Even if they put a disclaimer it leaves them open to promoting illegal activity. It will be interesting to see what happens here. Refunds will be requested I 'm sure. To not pay those refunds would mean taking money for illegal activity which is also illegal. What a flipping mess!

Edited as when read back the iPod used its own words which made this post hilarious!  ;D
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Cath on August 24, 2013, 16:06:55 PM
This as a "renter" is our concern..having used, like a lot of people, numerous sites to book our accommodation (apartments not villas) over the years will we find this now being limited..it is obviously a huge worry and concern to the property owners
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: andrew711 on August 24, 2013, 17:40:27 PM
I don't know that there is an issue as such with an agency or a website advertising an apartment. I don't recall any provision in the law which expressly forbid this, but Eleanor makes a good point on this.

Personally, I don't think this meeting yesterday is the end of the story by any means. It was all too hasty and too convenient, and shoving it into August (not normally a month for deciding anything much) just reinforces this impression. There are too many big-hitters who don't agree for it to be allowed to lie.

I wonder if, in Pollensa's case, there are grounds for lobbying the mayor. He isn't happy with the situation and nor are some opposition parties. The FELIB organisation was at that meeting (this is the federation for "local government entities") but how representative it was I couldn't say.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Papillon on August 24, 2013, 18:30:21 PM
I have been looking at possibly starting an online petition, it seems fairly straightforward and requires a title and short narrative to start. If this could then be translated into Spanish maybe we could then present this to the  Mayor.

I believe if we want a voice we have to stand up and be heard and maybe this is a way of showing our support for the local community.

Once the petition has been set up it is allocated a web address for people to access and then it is then up to all of us to use whatever social media sites or forums to generate the support.

Do others feel this is an initiative worth persuing?

Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on August 24, 2013, 20:10:06 PM
I do feel that petitions have their uses, and it is one way to show support certainly.  The only doubt that springs to mind is that it must not "drop" owners in it so to speak! It would be terrible to find that the thing they were signing would actually bring their downfall!
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on August 24, 2013, 21:12:45 PM
I tend to agree with Bella, Papillon. I think we have seen by the number of owners who have decided not to comment on posts on forums relating to this subject that many are keeping their heads down. Certainly can't blame them there!
I think to then ask them to put their name to a petition may be asking a little too much as although not happy with the situation they will not want to be flaggged up.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: andrew711 on August 24, 2013, 22:38:15 PM
No, getting people who "have an interest" to sign up to something wouldn't work. It's been tried in the past - there was, as an example, a guy who has a holiday rentals business based in the UK who tried doing something through the Bulletin a few years back and it was a flop - for the very reason that people wouldn't make themselves known, I suspect. Any lobbying would need to be done through a different channel, e.g. via one of the political parties which could be trusted, such as Pepe Garcia's Alternativa, or some other means. 
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Papillon on August 25, 2013, 06:55:50 AM
I take your points but I was thinking of broadening the issue from a single interest group to one that is more inclusive.

"The Owners, Tradars and Renters Group" or similar would allow owners to become less obvious.

Anyway we will just have to see what transpires with time.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on August 25, 2013, 07:17:30 AM
I was interested to see what owners in other areas of the island opinions were regarding the licence situation. Yesterday was a ghstly day here in London so I spent time emailing around various people and speaking to a few owners. A quick look on any rental site still gives lots of properties  and their owner details.

What surprised me was the lack of concern. The majority just carrying on as usual and not that worried thinking it is something that weill boil over. Speaking to one man who has a couple of apartments in Paguera (?) he was more concerned about his neighbours complaining then inspectors turning up. Someone else who had seen the posts on another forum considered it to be an over-reaction and 'typically English'. An interesting exercise!

What was interesting was the vast number of apartments still being advertised on many of the obvious sites. For any renter looking for a property for next year they will have as usual a huge choice. Owners do not seem to be that concerned probably thinking Spain is being Spain again!  ::)

Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: tonsyl on August 25, 2013, 09:25:23 AM
By the look of the report Andrew has posted about the recent meetings, they might be right too Eleanor. Does anyone in authority have any idea what's going on ?











Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: andrew711 on August 25, 2013, 10:04:51 AM
I can well understand owners feeling relaxed about the situation. We've been here before. Dire consequences threatened and very little action. The government, by saying they're tough, appease the hoteliers, while hoping that sufficient alarm will do its job for them and lead to properties being withdrawn. But this doesn't happen, so the game just keeps repeating itself.

Is this, one has to ask, any way to run a tourism industry?

By the way, how many people high up in the hotel industry or in local politics do you imagine have apartments that they rent out as tourist lets?
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on August 25, 2013, 11:27:51 AM
There is a community group facebook page just started up. It is called Mejorando Port de Pollença. This could be a very good way to start things off perhaps if it gets a lot of support and "Like" of its page.   ;)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on August 25, 2013, 11:40:36 AM
So, reading between the lines,  what is this saying in the Daily Bulletin?

Government wants amicable solution to the residential tourism debacle

Palma.—On Friday, the Ministry for Tourism is going to open negotiations with the mayors of the municipalities most affected by residential tourism while senior members of the Partido Popular said yesterday that, in order to find an amicable solution, they want to find common consensus in the best interests of the Balearic tourist industry.
The PP’s spokesperson for tourism, Lourdes Bosch, said yesterday that the government is not ruling out modifying the law in order to resolve the residential tourism debate.

Bosch said that since the new general Tourism Law was introduced in July of last year, 2'000 holiday homes have been regulated in the Balearics, the equivalent of 15'000 bed spaces. “But, in finding a solution to the problems suffered by certain sectors of the tourist industry at the hands of residential tourism we intend to talk to all parties involved and take it one step at a time,” she stressed.

According to the opposition Socialists, there is a huge loop hole in the new tourism law which excludes a number of holiday homes which do not need to be regulated.

Socialists MP Biel Oiver claimed that the government favours a ban as opposed to regulation.

Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: andrew711 on August 25, 2013, 12:51:59 PM
Bella, it's not saying anything. Sorry, with the greatest respect to my friends at the paper, but their website can create more misunderstanding. This refers to the situation before the Friday meeting between the tourism ministry and the local government people. Ignore it therefore, we've moved on since this.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on August 25, 2013, 13:02:46 PM
Thanks Andrew. Thats what I thought. Glad Im not going totally mad!
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: tonsyl on August 27, 2013, 07:02:44 AM
Excellent commentary on the situation, in the blog, this morning Andrew.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: andrew711 on August 27, 2013, 08:05:47 AM
Thanks for the compliment!

It's heartening to see that the Spanish press are getting their teeth stuck into this issue now. In Ultima Hora on the next page there was another comment piece on the same subject which was critical. It finished, by the way, by saying that "for the moment, inspections have been relaxed", which may be significant. The government knows it has got a problem and so a way of dealing with it is to back off. Not that this removes uncertainty or alarm of course.

This whole story has plenty of legs. I'd be surprised if there isn't a full-on debate in the Balearic parliament when it sits next. PSOE are certainly gunning for a change to the law and there are elements within the PP who aren't at all happy with their own party and so therefore the government.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on August 27, 2013, 09:37:10 AM
Here is the blog in question. Again, thanks Andrew;


The Non-Governing Tourism Ministry
Germà Ventayol is a columnist with "Ultima Hora". His column is entitled "Es Mussol". The owl. But mussol can also mean sty. Not a sty as in pigs but sty as in an  infection on the eyelid. Through the eyes of many, and not only the owl, there is an inflammation in Mallorca's tourism industry, for which treatment seems simple but which is anything but.

On Monday, Ventayol said this: "To prohibit the commercialisation of tourist rentals is a political suicide which I cannot believe that any (political) party with a minimum of common sense would commit".

Hallelujah. Perhaps I have criticised the local Spanish press too much. Ventayol is the latest local journalist to wade in against the regional government: "the armed wing of the hoteliers", as another one has described it.

The context of Ventayol's "political suicide" is rather different to the one in which the arguments regarding the tourist renting of private accommodation are typically placed. Renting of accommodation provides "the bread" from which many families in the Balearics live. It gives money which can help finance studies for their children or the care homes for their elders.

Ventayol is making a similar point to that which Toni Reus, the mayor of Santa Margalida, has made. Reus has defended the right of an owner to supplement income through property rental and has so taken issue with the government's attitude when it comes to apartments.

The government's response to both Ventayol and Reus would be that owners do have this right, as it exists under the tenancy act. It is an argument with which we are now very familiar but it is one that is of no use to anyone who wants to optimise a return on a property by advertising it as a tourist rental and, moreover, advertising it as such through channels that will enable optimisation. It is a specious argument and one that only succeeds in adding to confusion.

The story of the tourist rental of private accommodation has long been a matter of confusion. It shouldn't be, but it has been, and the government has encouraged this confusion. It has now added to this confusion by alluding to the potential for island councils to take matters into their own hands by regulating accommodation. The government will say that it is being fair by giving the councils the chance to regulate while at the same time being as selective as it always is in citing the tenancy act. It knows full well that the Council of Mallorca doesn't want to assume any responsibility for tourism matters, so therefore this council will not regulate.

Were another council (Menorca's being the only likely one) to regulate and so permit the tourist rental of apartments, the confusion would be aggravated. It would be an absurdity were one island to have different rules to another. It would be an absurdity brought about by an abrogation of responsibility by the tourism ministry to regulate for the whole of the Balearics, but this is an abrogation which is a consequence of the ministry being too scared to adopt a common sense approach. It may be political suicide to deny commercialisation but it would be political suicide to agree to it; the hoteliers would never forgive the Partido Popular.

Carlos Delgado hastily called a meeting in August, a month when important issues are never normally considered. It was a meeting without representatives from business sectors, without even the president of the Council of Menorca. Yet, Delgado claims there is consensus: one to do nothing other than to hold out an olive branch to the island councils, one of which - Ibiza's - agrees with him and another of which - Mallorca's - doesn't want any responsibility.

The government's disingenuousness and dissembling are staggering. It boasts that some 4,500 houses have been registered in the Balearics since the passing of the 2012 tourism act. Houses, yes, but why not apartments?

The reason why has its roots in the hotel boom of the 1990s which concentrated on building self-catering apartment hotels and which led to the 1999 tourism act, the one which first prohibited commercialisation of private apartments for tourist rental. Hotelier power and hotelier objections helped formulate tourism legislation then (they hadn't bargained on there having been a similar boom in private apartments for rent) and still do. The government can't admit this, because to do so would be to admit that it doesn't run the tourism industry.

Delgado's conveniently called meeting and cynically contrived consensus have merely inflamed further a situation over which it has so little control that it seeks to let the island councils decide for it. It is no way to run a tourism industry. Not that the government does.


Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Papillon on August 27, 2013, 10:08:24 AM
I think the response so far is more to do with the many of us who are fed up being stuck in this farce and want a final satisfactory resolution to the problem rather than being " a typically English overreaction" .
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on August 27, 2013, 10:18:12 AM
I do hope you are right Papillon.  I feel a teeny glimmer of hope trying to flicker to life now, although I know that the slightest breeze will put it right out again!  It obviously depends on so many factors, many that we cant or dare not put into words, although Andrew manages to do!  ;)  We can keep putting pressure on by our concern and just hope that the logical areas can find a way of over riding those who can shout the loudest.  A very hard ask I know, lets just hope its not impossible!  :-\
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on August 27, 2013, 11:10:25 AM
Oh this headline makes me laugh!   "THE FINAL WORD ......." !!

I will lay money on it that it's not!  Anyway, just a link saying the same old same old really.

http://www.seemallorca.com/property/letting/the-final-word-on-property-rental.html
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: andrew711 on August 27, 2013, 12:00:26 PM
This is basically the same article that The Bulletin ran on Sunday by Will Besga.

Will is absolutely right regarding what can be done under the tenancy act and while he may feel exasperated that this message doesn't get across, there is equal exasperation at the fact that the tenancy act is of only limited value. For the majority of apartment owners, it is of no value for reasons that have been stated many times in respect of advertising properties and of providing services.

No, it is not the final word. Anything but.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: mama mia on October 09, 2013, 18:02:17 PM
Exasperated is the word.  Does anyone know where its possible to obtain copies of local laws
regarding tourist licenses for residents and non-residents?  We feel we need to know exactly
where we stand before next season.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on October 09, 2013, 20:28:03 PM
Palma Arena building which is on calle de l Uruguay (govern balear) and is open from 9 am till 2 pm. Telephone number 971 178999.

I have been told this is the place to answer all our questions!!  ::)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Bonyslad on October 10, 2013, 06:42:06 AM
Hear the Gestapo were hassling renters down south of the Island last week !!!

 BL  >:( :(
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on October 10, 2013, 08:43:17 AM
When things go quiet we assume they go away! Seems this bunch are quite determined to take freedom of choice away from property owners and make life difficult!

Someone please pass the. 'For sale' sign!  :(
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: andrew711 on October 10, 2013, 18:16:03 PM
See if it happens but I was asked the other evening by Kate Mentink to take part in a debate, probably at the Chamber of Commerce, on "residential tourism" (which includes all this carry-on) at which there will be a man from the tourism ministry. Some time mid-November. It will be in English. Keep you posted.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on October 11, 2013, 09:38:07 AM
Andrews blog;

Holiday Rentals: Now they go international
The Spanish Confederation of Hotels and Tourist Accommodation (CEHAT) has issued a report in which it says that holiday rentals that are not within the law generate a black economy sum of almost 3,000 million euros.

This is a staggering amount of money, so staggering that it is hard to know what it actually refers to. Is CEHAT saying this is an annual sum? As always with these amounts that are thrown into the media fire, they are designed to stagger without substance being offered to support them or to explain them. Let's just accept, though, that there is a lot of black money associated with holiday rentals; it is undeniable.

This 3,000 million is from the "oferta alegal". The use of "alegal" is not unimportant as it doesn't mean the same as "ilegal". It means "not within the law" and can also mean "unregulated". The distinction is important because across Spain many holiday rentals are "alegal" in that there is no legislation in several regions of the country that expressly deals with this type of accommodation. There is one region, however, that does have legislation, and we are of course familiar with it: the Balearics tourism law.

The need for regions to have their own laws is one consequence of the reform of the national tenancy act. Madrid, by this reform, effectively abrogated any responsibility for holiday rentals, placing this responsibility with regional governments. It was a reform that had the support of the hoteliers (some might say that it was a reform drawn up by the hoteliers) as, in certain parts of Spain, the hotel lobby is all powerful, e.g. in the Balearics, and heavily influences regional legislation.

It was a reform, however, that was curious in one particular way. The national plan for tourism, published in June last year, identified "an increase in residential tourism" as a strength of Spain's tourism. Though the plan's document avoided reference to holiday rentals, concentrating instead on second homes and on family use of such homes (permissible under the tenancy act), this type of tourism is only an element of the catch-all term "residential tourism". Another element, and a very significant element, is the "oferta alegal" or "ilegal" where illegal can be used.

What was doubly curious was that, having identified this type of tourism as a "national" strength, a reform that does not directly come under the heading of tourism, that to do with the tenancy act, which is property legislation, went in the opposite direction. By handing responsibilities to regional government, not only was a national strength ignored but the potential for diverse and so confusing legislation was also heightened. To give one example, and a very different one to the Balearics, in Catalonia, where there is regulation, the offer of holiday rental places has soared. CEHAT says that, in Barcelona alone, it greatly outstrips the number of places in hotels or previously regulated types of accommodation, so bringing about conditions under which it is impossible for hoteliers to compete.   

But what CEHAT doesn't say is that Catalonia introduced a tourist tax last year. The government there saw a need to harmonise this tax for different types of accommodation and also saw a revenue opportunity; it has regulated holiday rentals in order to bring in more money. And what CEHAT doesn't admit is that growing tourist demand cannot be met by hotel supply and will not be met by a new boom in hotel construction (there are due, for example, to be some new hotels built in Mallorca but only a few). 

There has been, again according to CEHAT, a very significant rise in the "oferta alegal" over the past three years: a rise of 300%. We will have to take its word for it. There is little doubt that there has been a steep increase and there are good reasons why - demand, economic circumstances (of owners who need to supplement incomes), the emergence of P2P websites such as Airbnb. Alarmed by this, CEHAT sees the threat not just nationally but also internationally. At the meeting of the European Trade Association of Hotels, Restaurants and Cafés in Europe that takes place shortly in Athens, it hopes that "international best practice" can be established to guide regulation of accommodation that is outside the law.

CEHAT, as with the hotel federation in Mallorca, cries foul against the "oferta alegal", warning of the dangers it poses to the tourism industry and claiming unfair competition. It will keep on issuing these warnings and making these claims, while all the time not admitting that its aim is to eliminate competition; and competition, moreover, that is needed in order to satisfy demand.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: andrew711 on November 20, 2013, 19:28:17 PM
Sorry all, been away for a while but to let you know, if you don't already, there is to be this debate organised by Europeos por España on residential tourism/holiday lets on 10 December at the Club Diario de Mallorca (6.30pm-8.00pm). This is in the Diario building on the Llevant poligono in Palma. Parking is easy for Palma as the newspaper has a free one next to it. Kate Mentink asks that anyone who wishes to attend should let EporE know on the email address below. The director-general of tourism, Jaime Martinez, will be the star turn.

EporE.baleares@gmail.com
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Bonyslad on November 20, 2013, 23:28:34 PM
The director-general of tourism, Jaime Martinez, will be the star turn.

EporE.baleares@gmail.com

 No Andrew,

 You will be the star turn.

 Sock it too them , Mate, and we expect a full report on your perspective of the event

 BL :) :)

 
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on November 21, 2013, 05:32:54 AM
Lets hope sense prevails for the island.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: tonsyl on November 21, 2013, 08:11:37 AM
The problem is BD, that even though sense may prevail at the meeting, will the government listen?
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: andrew711 on November 21, 2013, 20:37:38 PM
Probably won't listen, but I hope there is plenty of opportunity for those who come to ask questions of Sr. Martinez, who may well be in for a tough evening.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: mama mia on December 01, 2013, 20:22:42 PM
If we can do anything to add support to those defending our position on tourism licenses, please
do contact me.  As we cannot physically attend the meeting, perhaps there is an alternative to show
the concern felt by those affected by this situation.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on December 11, 2013, 10:16:16 AM
Thanks for the update Andrew;

 
 

   
An Evening Down The Club: Holiday rentals



The Diario de Mallorca newspaper empire is headquartered on the Llevant industrial estate in Palma. This is one of those industrial estates with no industry, its layout and roads having taken an inordinately long time to have been re-done three or so years ago. It is an estate which is testimony to the bizarre priorities of urban planning. Spend time and money re-developing something that no one has any interest in using. Except the Diario, whose HQ has been there as long the original estate; longer perhaps. Maybe they built an industrial estate around it. Who knows.

You can't miss the Diario HQ, certainly not when it's dark. Its titles - "Diario de Mallorca" and "Mallorca Zeitung" - shine brightly above the desolate nothingness of the Llevant estate. Beacons of life and industry. The newspaper industry. I had been there before as I had once used its print works: if you need something printed with newsprint, then you use a newspaper printer. I had not been to the Club before. This is a theatre to which the great and good and the less than great and the bad are called to offer their views on matters of importance. The matter of importance yesterday evening was that of holiday rentals, an issue which has somehow become a Mastermind subject where I am concerned.

It was to have been a debate, which in fact it wasn't. The director-general from the tourism ministry had initially been billed but had probably realised that he had a longstanding engagement to wash his hair - not that he has much. So instead a lady called Margarita came along together with a translator. The debate was to be in English. Much of it wasn't. I was told that no one of any significance at the ministry speaks English, which probably says something. I also learned that the director general is in fact an architect by profession, which is useful for tourism and for studying the layout of unused industrial estates. It may not have mattered that he was washing his hair after all.

Margarita spoke, at length, about the Balearics tourism law. The words "permitted" and "not permitted" were uttered often. She was talking specifically about what can and what can't be rented out as tourist accommodation, which was relevant to the debate (such as it was) and which confirmed that the overriding concern of the tourism ministry is to blind everyone with bureaucracy. A lawyer, Javier, spoke, at length, about what was permitted and what wasn't. And in case anyone had fallen asleep, he then repeated all this during what was meant to have been a one-sentence summing up which lasted roughly five minutes. He knew his stuff, though.

Alvaro Middelmann, the former boss of Air Berlin in Spain and Portugal and the one-time president of the Mallorca Tourist Board, spoke with great common sense not about what is or isn't permitted but about tourism, which is rather more important than the intricacies of property law. As he normally speaks common sense, this was not surprising. He is one of a very few people in Mallorca who appear to actually understand tourism. The ministry doesn't; that became abundantly clear.

So, what did we learn? Not a lot. Or rather, I didn't learn anything I didn't already know. But if there was one strong message above all it was that the loophole provided by the tenancy act is a crook's charter. So long as there is a contract with the renter which expressly says there is no service being provided, then the rental is ok. Also assuming the property hasn't been advertised as a holiday rental, which does kind of beg a question. If a property is advertised for rent in a tourist area, regardless of how it is described or isn't, then the chances are that it will be rented by a tourist.

This loophole is useful in another regard. Rent out in this fashion and there's no IVA (VAT) to be paid. Hence, there is a situation which is being abused. Services do get provided, but the owner will make out that it is the tenant who has obtained them, not he. It is a loophole which adds to confusion rather than reduces it, and it is a loophole which is no use to those owners who wish to be up-front in advertising their apartments as a holiday let and in providing services. It is a typically Spanish double-speak legal loophole.

That, therefore, was pretty much it. A debate which didn't address the role of holiday rentals for a diverse tourism market, one which didn't really address tourism at all, despite my attempts to do so and those of Alvaro Middelmann. And what will come of it? Nothing, one imagines. Nice theatre, though.


 Posted by  andrew     at  8:57 AM     No comments:     

 
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: tonsyl on December 11, 2013, 15:31:08 PM
If it wasn't so serious it would be farcical !
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on December 11, 2013, 15:37:47 PM
True. Unfortunately I don't think sense will prevail, and even if it does it wont help certain areas of renting. A lot of changes will be happening regarding advertising, infact, it already has. Hopefully it wont stop people going to the island, but it will obviously change where they stay and how their money is spent. No point going over it all again though, time to accept that the big boys win, move on and find other areas of interest. It wont be in AI though, I can promise you that!  :-[
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: tonsyl on December 11, 2013, 15:46:22 PM
As you know BD, we are not owners, we just rent and due to our normal landlord being fully booked with "other nationalities" when we want to travel next year, we have been forced to search for an alternative. I have been surprised at the reduced number of advertisers "peddling their wares" on the usual sites so it seems things, as you say, have changed already. One thing I have found however is that many places have the full signs up already so people are travelling.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Papillon on December 11, 2013, 15:54:08 PM
A missed opportunity for meaningful dialog, this is politics at its worst.
Will just have to enjoy the area as it gradually declines and becomes a ghost town.
Still at least the hoteliers will be happy.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: tonsyl on December 12, 2013, 08:40:55 AM
I don't agree Papillon, I cannot see the place dying.
Changing, yes, but there are too many villa rental companies with too many apartments and villas on their books to allow the rental market to disappear. As I said to BD, we are looking for a suitable property at the moment and there is plenty of choice.( Some of which we like, already full !! ) Granted not so many as there were from the "private" sector but  I have found apartments that last year appeared in such as that other well known forum, now on the books of such as Villa Parade. I don't know how they work, but some owners have clearly gone to a different form of marketing/sales medium.
For me, the glass is half full, PP will be around, maybe in a slightly changed form, but around still in many, many years.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on December 12, 2013, 10:20:46 AM
Many owners will  have done some homework on this rental problem to see if there are loopholes which can be used. Obviously the "Services provided" is the main grey area which could be exploited, but its not going to go down well on any type of advertising ............"wonderful apartment for rent, absolutely nothing included except for being in Puerto Pollensa" !!  And actually, the fact that its advertised at all is virtually illegal! I have had off the record chats with various agencies who say they have no sway on getting apartment licences either, so any advertising they do for apartments is not going to help owners.
Villas are a totally different matter, and evidently, and I use the word carefully, they are able to get licences.
It appears that apartments can only be "Rented" out to "friends" who have not seen any advertising and only know about it by word of mouth and are willing to obtain all services privately and pay on site.
This is of course not practical for owners who need to be sure of an income rather than just have a holiday home.  And pay every single tax that is required too I may add!

If this worry continues, there will be more owners who do not resubscribe to any advertising, and will be forced to put their apartments on the market.  This will, as has been said, put big smiles on the hoteliers, who will have won the war, as they are the only ones advertising! Villas may well come into their own though, so maybe those who can afford to buy a villa and pay for the all year round security etc will still be able to hang on. Those who are young enough to think about buying properties are having enough trouble doing so in the UK, so they wont be doing it abroad.  The older generation who were lucky enough to do so in years gone by will be selling up and bring money back home.

Who wins? Certainly not the locals, and in my opinion, not the tourists.  >:(
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: tonsyl on December 12, 2013, 14:55:41 PM
This is going to run and run BD, we all have opinions and, as I have said, the current situation re tenancy etc seems to be a complete pigs breakfast.
I don't share the doom and gloom scenario over the long term viability of the Port but, for the sake of clarity, what I would really like to know is a realistic picture of the number of residential apartments bought in Pollensa / Puerto Pollensa which are used solely as a home by the owners, the number used by owners as holiday homes and not rented and those bought by the owners as a "business venture" and rented for an income. Probably no one knows exactly but if not, an educated guestimate would be interesting.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Papillon on December 12, 2013, 18:06:35 PM
I hope you are right tonsyl but  I think there will always be differing opinions expressed by renters and owners.

It would be interesting to see how the views of owners have changed since purchasing, certainly my initial intention was for friends and family only but times have changed.

Someone once asked me if many properties were for sale in PP and I said I didn't know but if you knock on any door at the moment and make an offer many would snap your hand off.

If I can't rent I can live with it, but I no longer see my property as an investment for the future.

Still love the place though and will always enjoy my days in the sun.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on December 12, 2013, 21:17:52 PM
We have owned for many, many years and certainly times have changed very much. We bought initially a small apartment for our and our family sole use. We later bought a villa with the intention of eventually moving on a permanent basis. This changed for various reasons. We decided to keep the villa as we loved it and we loved Pollensa. It became our intention to rent out during the times we were unable to use ourselves.

In the days we first bought there was a wonderful feel to Pollensa with a mix of nationalities all coming together in respect and love for the area and it's people. A property would be placed on the market in the morning and be sold by the afternoon - literally people wanted to be part of a wondeful place. People were happy too - not that i'm suggesting that they are not happy now but there was a glow to the place. Ok some might suggest with the passage of time I have rose tinted glasses but I think not. We would not still be in Mallorca all these years on.

BUT - things are now different in my opinion. Some might disagree but to me there is a feel now that is not a glowing feel. The big brother is watching is unnerving. we are not free to do as we wish with our own property without fear of a knock on the door. We worry about advertising incase the powers that be can identify it. Neighbour has been put up against neighbour - those for renting and those who are against. Both views are valid and both views have probably always been there but now the feel is different and in some ways quite desperate.

The meeting the other evening which Andrew attended and reported was quite unbelievable.
( An Evening Down The Club: Holiday rentals - thanks Andrew.)  Or rather I suppose it is believable as is typical of the attitude and short sightedness of those in authority.

Business are struggling - restaurants are closing and prices for the most simple of tasks are becoming so stupidly high that a name mentioned is 'Rip off Island". I have invoices with prices that frankly are laughable and that would not have been the case just a few years back.  All this added together takes away the enthusiam to own a place in the sun. I agree that there are many properties for sale. My feelings towards the agents is well documented but now they really do have to work for their 5% + 21% IVA!! Only the best will survive and over the last few years many have gone by the wall.

It has been suggested to me by one agent that this clamp down on private renting will encourage the area to become 'upmarket'  again! - their words not mine! I wonder how they justify that comment!  :o

I do worry that many apartments were sold with the emphasis being on revenue produced by renting. Mortgages were taken out with rental taken into consideration. For those who purchased at the top of the market the fact that they can not now legally rent will cause massive problems. Will this mean that once the mortgage is a greater figure than the value of the property people will walk away? What about community charges? If these are not paid by some in the blocks will property become run down? Oh dear there really is such a knock on to this!
We have said before in previous posts that those who prefer to rent a private property will probably not now decide
to holiday for example at Villa Concha but may decide to go to Turkey instead. It is not Pollensa or nowhere but for many it is Pollensa or elsewhere! Interesting times ahead folks!  ::)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Flyer on December 13, 2013, 09:01:29 AM
.......... the number used by owners as holiday homes and not rented and those bought by the owners as a "business venture" and rented for an income. Probably no one knows exactly but if not, an educated guestimate would be interesting.

Impossible to say but for the sake of it I list the situation in our 12 unit block of apartments .....

1) Owned by a local for his own, mainly weekend, use.
2) Same guy 1) purchased solely to let out - mainly through an agency, sometimes direct.
3) Mine - just family use around 18 weeks a year
4) Brit - again only family use around 10 weeks a year
5) Local who lives there
6) Brit - mainly for family use but very occasionally (once this year I think) let out
7) Owned by local - short term lets - mainly through an agency, occasionally direct
8) Owned by lady from the mainland - long term let to permanent resident who works in the Port
9) Owned by local - short term lets - mainly through an agency, occasionally direct (not same owner as 7)
10) Owned by French lady - long term let to permanent resident who works in the Port
11) Owned by Italian who used to visit frequently but less so just recently - for own use only
12) Owned by a local for her own, mainly weekend, use.

So basically a real mix of Brits, Spanish, French, Italian and locals who just keep for themselves or totally let their places either short holiday lets or long term to residents. I think it is great as we have people resident there who 'look after the place', we have people just on holiday who love the place but often need a bit of help to find restaurants etc but as owners we all have the common goal of wanting to keep the place smart and tidy.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on December 13, 2013, 10:02:16 AM
I wonder if this is typical. We are still in contact with one of our neighbours in the block where we owned an apartment. The majority of which are British owned and rented out. I do not know if they are rented directly or via an agency but I do know that a number of them where on a well know website as being direct rentals last season.

We have a friend who owns a McCallum built apartment near the Pollensa Park area of Gommar. It was written into their contract that the apartment was not a rental block but he was told it was ok and to ignore 'as everyone does it'! Yes people do rent out but they are not only hiding their actions from Big Brother but also from the community in general.

It was also interesting to note that when my husband was over last time various agents in the Old Town were still advertising apartments for sale quoting excellent rental potential!   ::)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: tonsyl on December 13, 2013, 14:59:08 PM
Thank you Flyer for your comments, interesting and as you say "impossible to say" exactly but really for my own satisfaction I am trying to get a clear picture. Your post is also interesting Eleanor, especially the comments from local estate agents but, to be charitable to them, there are a lot of long term rentals in the old town as I found when I was looking at the possibility of 6 months rental for the winter………….. Maybe I'm being too charitable !!
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on December 13, 2013, 16:56:38 PM
Tonsyl - maybe - just maybe!  ;D

They too need to get around the legal bits I suppose!
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Flyer on December 14, 2013, 08:43:25 AM
Here comes the Daily Mail ! >>>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2523474/Brits-holiday-homes-Spain-France-banned-renting-tourists.html
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on December 14, 2013, 12:05:08 PM
Oh great! As is typical they only report part of the story and fail to be completely accurate too. What a wishy washy piece of reporting!

One thing is for sure though - Spain certainly seems to be on it's own death wish!  ::)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Tiggy on December 14, 2013, 12:47:13 PM
Agree a non piece of reporting ... the DM stated in the piece .... There are 200,000 UK holiday homeowners in France, mostly in Provence, the Dordogne,  Normandy and Brittany.

Lawmakers in Germany will vote on similar laws in the next fortnight

----in Germany they dont even have a government in place so how they are going to pass an non existing proposal into a  law in two weeks ? unless Santa is giving up his night shift .....
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: tonsyl on December 14, 2013, 14:22:36 PM
Sounds like the DM is living up to it's reputation again !
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on December 14, 2013, 17:33:18 PM
This sort of reporting is just dangerous! It does nothing to help anyone least of all property owners and renters who will be left not knowing what to do. Excellent PR for the likes of Turkey etc!  >:(
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: andrew711 on December 16, 2013, 13:50:54 PM
The Mail's article is, I think, wrong. It refers to legislation next spring banning holiday rentals. I fancy they have confused things and are referring to reports from last year which heralded reform this spring, i.e. the change in the tenancy act. Why would, if you believed this report, the Spanish government legislate on something that it already has legislated on and for which it has passed responsibilities to regional governments. Seems to me like shoddy journalism.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: mama mia on December 17, 2013, 12:50:10 PM
 :D
Well, so glad I read Andrews response.  I was getting very worried for a while.  We are on tenterhooks at present
not knowing which way to go.  I so wish we could get some form of official legislation that we can all see and understand
and act upon.  The New Year is looming fast and we have to make a decision about our property, one way or the other.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on December 17, 2013, 13:05:16 PM
From how I understand it MM nothing seems to have changed. It is illegal to rent an apartment as a holiday home unless in a designated block which holds a licence and has a specific reception area. No licence will be given to an individual apartment owner and fines will be issued if big brother catches you! Apartments can be rented out on a long term basis with strict contracts in place. No extras are allowed!

Villas which are stand alone i.e.detached and not on a community can apply for a licence. Once the licence has been applied for then it is considered legal  even if you do not actually hold that licence in your hand.

As I said this is the basics and as I understand the situation. I may very well not be correct though.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on December 17, 2013, 16:59:48 PM
Spain-holiday.com will no longer accept an advertisment for a rental property without a licence number.
I suspect that others will be forced to follow this lead.

Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: tonsyl on December 18, 2013, 08:59:45 AM
A thought passed through my mind which was; is the licence (if one was granted in the past) in the name of the property or the owner at the time it was issued? My question comes about because whilst we were searching for suitable accommodation for "Katies' long holiday in PP" we heard of one renter who was in the process of selling their property on the basis of rental opportunity. Obviously, if the licence was on the property, no problem (possibly) but if in the name of selling owner, problems (probably).
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on December 18, 2013, 11:02:25 AM
I cant see how anyone - private or estate agent - can now sell a property stating its Good for rental income, unless it comes with a licence. I have not heard of anyone actually obtaining a licence either. Spring time appears to be the time the authorities will start their coup again of knocking on doors. I think this year will be the last year for a lot of private rentals.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on December 18, 2013, 12:19:26 PM
From how I understand it and the info we have once the licence is applied for then you can rent legally. The process takes quite a while and there are no guarentees. We are in the process of going through the system so I will keep you informed.

It is the property which holds the licence and certain criteria have to be met. Again from how I understand it, floor plans have to be provided and there also needs to be a bathroom to bedroom ratio too. Oh and they can come and check as one would expect!  ::)

I think it reasonable for a villa to be sold as 'excellent rental potential' if a licence is applied for or already held. What does seem to be happening still though is Apartments being marketed with rental potential when the agent is aware that the only legal rental would be long term and not holiday. This is misleading >:(

Although personal infor etc has to be provided as per Big Brother it is the property which holds the licence otherwise a licence may be obtained for a villa with the number used for other properties and we can't have that now can we!  :o

Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Papillon on December 18, 2013, 12:24:20 PM
Eleanor I think your interpretation is spot on.

I've decided to take my property out of the market next year and have returned the few deposits I already have. I'll put it up for sale for a sensible price and see if there is any interest over the next 12 months or so.

Will still enjoy my time in PP just don't need to be looking over my shoulder the whole time. Maybe things will be different in a couple of years but I won't be holding my breath.

Regarding permits I believe it is on the property as a friend who recently bought a villa has a stainless steel plaque attached to his gate post with permit no etc.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on December 18, 2013, 14:18:12 PM
I think many owners will be doing the same Papillon. Wish I could afford a villa!
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: tonsyl on December 18, 2013, 15:19:46 PM
Thanks for the comments folks and re the reference to Katie's holiday, all sorted now, she'll be strutting the sea front for a month or so in March.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Papillon on December 18, 2013, 15:29:02 PM
One hopes that enough owners withdraw their properties for the effect to be felt on local businesses, only then will we see some coordinated action.

Sadly it's going to a painful time for many.

Interestingly one of my friends with a townhouse on the mainland says there is no concern over there and they will continue to rent as normal.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on December 18, 2013, 17:56:36 PM
I have a friend in Nerja and same there. Infact she hadn't heard any rumblings in the area. This feels like big brother stamping his big heavy boots doesn't it?

I remember when we bought our villa (height of the market!!) Tony Dela Cruz said to us that in his experience property on the Island would always hold it's price unlike the mainland. - emmmm?  ::) Well that's solicitors for you!
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on January 19, 2014, 10:35:03 AM
Well it is all quiet on the licence front but does this mean the problem has gone away? I think not! It is just waiting to show it's head once the sun shines and the season starts in my opinion.

BUT - can someone PLEASE explain why I have received this email from a well known agent in the Port?

 
Dear Sirs,
 
We can offer you as investment for rental in the
in the urbanisation of Pinaret two apartments on the
same floor (first).

This is just part of the email but what it clearly says is that agents are still pushing apartments as a buy to rent. Now this might be clever on the part of the agent who might answer that it was for long term rent but come on... misleading or what?

It is well documented my feelings towards agents but this is clearly an email that is either encouraging illegal renting, trying to mislead OR they know something we don't know?

I wonder which it might be?
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on January 19, 2014, 11:13:06 AM
Or they just basically don't care!  >:(
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on January 19, 2014, 12:29:16 PM
Yes that is more like it! With a commission of 5% on each I suppose they don't care! It's in the small print as they say!!
I just think it is so bad that anyone not being aware (or indeed told) about the licence problem may find themselves in trouble. There are also agents in the Old Town still advertising good for rental on properties too. They should be fighting the cause not trying to get around it. If the agents were to get together with others and fight the silly rule then that would be useful.

Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: tonsyl on January 19, 2014, 13:54:27 PM
Re the comments on the agents in Pollensa itself, might they just be referring to "stand alone" properties which seem to be the majority in that area, whereas in the Port, the majority of accommodation is in "apartment" type?
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on January 19, 2014, 17:39:36 PM
No Tonsyl they were referring to apartments both in the Port and in the Old town.

Stand alone villas are able to apply for a licence  which can take quite a while to come through but at least once applied for it is ok to rent. Not quite sure what other can of worms it opens mind you! Into IVA etc etc  and each quarter submitting accounts.

Watch this space.  ::)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: tonsyl on January 19, 2014, 20:52:22 PM
The accounts bit should be no surprise to anyone thinking of renting because, by any other name, it is still a business. However, if the agents are still "pushing" the sale on the basis of rental possibilities as far as apartments are concerned either they need to get business by any means, their heads are firmly in the sand or, they know something we don't. Just out of pure interest, the agents pushing the "rental" bit, are they the big boys or the little one man bands? No names of course.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on January 19, 2014, 22:39:54 PM
As you say we are used to submitting accounts but the Iva will be every 12 weeks I think plus it's yet another bunch of paperwork which we know what that means when connected to Spain!

One of the agents was very much one of the bigger names. The email received which i referred to in my earlier post was from a smaller agent in the Port. This agent had been around for years and is well known to many nationalities and certainly should know better. As I said before the answer no doubt will be that their intention was to push long term rental!

Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group - Here we go again !
Post by: tonsyl on August 03, 2014, 20:55:42 PM
I read comments in the press that the hoteliers are crying foul again over their occupancy levels and the "alleged" high number of  lettings. Didn't we go down this road last year ?
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on August 04, 2014, 09:18:43 AM
Oh flipping heck! Same old same old!  ::)

My husband was speaking with a hotel manager in Palma a week or so ago. He was saying that a high proportion of apartments in Palma are owned by Mallorcans who rent them short term i.e. holiday to a world wide market. He was saying that no way would they be dictated to by the government and the opinion was that they voted them in and they could vote them out.

I don't think his comments were geared just to the licence situation but the overall feelings that the locals who own will not be dictated to on any level by anyone. I wonder if they really do have that much influence?
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on August 04, 2014, 09:28:00 AM
I have a dark mist descending over my mind! Hoteliers V Local strength. Money or Loyalty. In the words of the TV show Big Brother (as apposed to the George Orwell book) You Decide!!    Or not, obviously!  :-\
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: tonsyl on August 04, 2014, 18:56:26 PM
I agree with the sentiments expressed to your husband Eleanor. When this business was grabbing peoples attention last year, we had a long conversation with our very good friend, who was born and has always lived in Mallorca. Her views echoed those in your comments
in that the locals with such interests would "carry on regardless". Seemingly, many of them are in high positions in Mallorca and probably have a certain amount of influence.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Bonyslad on September 05, 2014, 15:03:36 PM
See this subject has raised it's ugly head again in that the Hoteliers Association has denounced 40 websites advertising "illegal" properties to rent. Not only leaving it at that they have appointed a company to identify further sites offering illegal properties to let.

Who appointed these Guys and what right do they have to take the law unto themselves ? I think we should be told

BL  :(
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on September 05, 2014, 16:46:17 PM
Interesting. Are they thinking of fining the sites as well as the properties now? And as you say BL, what authority do they have to do so?  >:(
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on September 05, 2014, 18:55:02 PM
This attitude really is beginning to grate! How flipping dare they?  >:( As you say who gave them the right to take this approach? I really wonder if this might all backfire when enough people say enough! This short sighted attitude effects everything to do with the holiday rental market from the initial property purchase through to general retail to even keeping supermarkets open. Ok that sounds far stretched but think about the number of people who will not purchase property or will not rent out. Think of all the people employed in areas connected to rental. Think about retail outlets set up to cater for the rental market perhaps selling bedding towels etc etc as well as supermarkets opened due to the number of self catering renters. I'm sure PP wouldn't need so many supermarkets if it weren't for the renters. Over the top I might be but there is a knock on effect to this bully boy attitude.  >:(
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on September 05, 2014, 18:58:47 PM
Not at all ott Eleanor, spot on on my opinion!  >:(
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Bonyslad on September 06, 2014, 08:37:36 AM
My comment stems from Andrew's excellent article in yesterday's Bulletin whereby the responsible Minister said he would keep a "watching brief" over websites . This apparently wasn't far enough for the Hoteliers Association who have immediately denounced 40 such sites and appointed a company to track down others . They are demanding a much more draconian approach to the issue including embedding neighbours approval before property can be rented.

BL   >:( :(
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on September 07, 2014, 11:56:45 AM
Maybe we shoud set up an association which demands to see pool safety standards for the hotel industry improve as well as twice daily checks on pool water chemicals. Oh and we can insist on spot checks on food hygene especailly that horrid buffet stuff which hangs around for hours. Be interesting to see the standards in some kitchens too. Maybe we should put the squeeze on these bullys that seem to feel they are untouchable.  >:(

I'm just getting a little fed up with this rubbish if you hadn't noticed!  ::)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: spaceward on September 11, 2014, 13:40:12 PM
Good afternoon to all on the Bonygraph Forum,

I've introduced myself on the New Members page so wont go through that part but my name is Ian and have spent many a happy Holiday in this fantastic town that has so much to offer.

My self , Sister and Mother are now on the verge of making a decision whether or not we buy a small property in PP as my mother is now retired and both myself and my Sister work in Education so we have a bit more "free" time for holidays. A one bed apartment would be great for our needs but we would like to have the option of renting it out during the weeks that any of us won't be using it. We would have to rent , at least for a few weeks to cover some of the running costs etc but in no way a "family holiday let " In fact we have all agreed to no "mates rates" even for Family or Friends.

After reading the past 11 pages I'm totally confused , concerned and somewhat disappointed that we may not be able to make this possible due to reasons that even to some long time members are in a quandary over.  Apartment units that specifically state no renting being rented out , turn  blind eye , massive fines.....   All I want is to do things by the book, properly , legally and transparent. Is there any hope of this  ?  :-\

What do we do now. We are all visiting PP in late October with some apartments to view but I'm so disheartened by what I'm reading , if I'm reading it correctly, it maybe a white elephant. Any help , suggestions or views gratefully received.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Regards,
Ian

Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on September 11, 2014, 14:09:07 PM
Hi Ian, and welcome! I, like many others, would love to be able to say "read this Ian, it will make things totally clear for you." But unfortunately I'm not sure if it it really is. The totally legal way is that apartments cannot be advertised for rent. But when you look at the many rental sites, it makes a bit of a mockery of that! Infact some estate agents selling apartments still advertise them as "having good rental incomes"!! There is so much controversy on this matter that it does lead to many owners just carrying on until something positive actually happens. The hoteliers are now pushing to fine the rental sites. No idea where that one will go! The only places that can be rented "legally" with a licence are villas, and it appears that even those have to have the ok from neighbours.  But you have probably read all of this anyway.  All I can say is that I have not heard of anyone yet being fined, and the rental market is still booming.  ;)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: spaceward on September 12, 2014, 08:48:08 AM
Hi Belladonna,

Thanks very much for your reply. Indeed a couple of the properties I'm hoping to take a look at on my visit to PP in October have been actively marketed as " great rental income" so I have purposely asked the agents about the legalities of the rental market etc and still await a reply.
As I mentioned the purpose of buying an apartment is not about only renting , it's main purpose would be for Holidays for me and my wife, Sister and mum all at various times of the year but we would need to raise some income from the property to cover some of the running costs , cleaning , linin etc etc . However reading all posts on this forum and others regarding the new license requirements this is not looking like a possibility which could put the purchase in a different light. We wouldn't be "punching about our weight" on the finance for the apartment but in this current economic climate every little helps.

Regards,
Ian
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on September 12, 2014, 11:57:23 AM
The rental of apartments for short term lets i.e. holiday rentals is illegal. Many agents do still advertise properties as having good rental incomes. This is deliberate and misleading but possibly true as they will say that they refer to long term rents of over 6 months which is very different to holiday rentals. A contract needs to be provided and no services are included such as linen or cleaning etc.

I do know of one member of this forum said that her block had the licence people turn up and question. No doubt she will tell you more as and when she logs in. As I said before it is a hornets nest which has neighbour against neighbour. As you have read the posts you will have a good idea what this is about. The problem is that Mallorca being Mallorca things change all the time and can go either way. The one thing which is sure is that the rental of apartments unless in a designated holiday zone such as Habitat as an example, for holiday lets is illegal and that should be taken into consideration especially if income is required to help with the costs.

Villas are able to apply for a rental licence as long as they are stand alone. i.e. detached. There are set rules as to the number of bathrooms per bedroom/person and other criteria which needs to be met. The EEC are also looking into pools being made safer for example fenced off but they have been speaking of this for a while. The villa also has to have easy fire escape and smoke detectors which they should have anyway of course.

Unlike here too you will find that solicitors and especially agents are not too keen on disclosing information so do ensure you have your list of questions ready. You need to be very sure that there are no debts on the property or else you might find yourself responsible. All this I'm sure you have read and are aware. The final suggestion would be to ensure that with the purchase you take independent legal advice. Many agents state that they have their own inhouse legal people and it will be quicker and cheaper to use them. This might be the case but it could end up costling a lot more long term.

Whatever you decide good luck and I hope it works out for you. If we can help further do just ask.  :)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Bonyslad on September 15, 2014, 22:38:52 PM
Ian,

One way round this is to revisit your "no mates rates " decision and to charge mates and family market rates . That's how to get round the conundrum. You've then got the perfect reason for letting friends and family use your property and you ain't advertising on the "open market " . Way to go, Mate , way to go

BL  :)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: spaceward on September 16, 2014, 13:01:10 PM
Hi All,

Thanks very much for the great response to my questions and queries regarding rental of apartments in PP. One thing I will add is when I explained as best I could to my Mum and Sister about the licensing etc the first question from them both was " well what are people who have property rental as a legitimate business going to do " ?

Fair point I suppose, what will the licensing issue mean to them and their business which they may have built up over a period of time ?
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on September 16, 2014, 16:49:28 PM
It is a very good question Ian and one that many owners have had to visit. The short answer for many is to either not rent, do as BL suggests or to keep going in the hope that this will go away or you will not get caught.  >:(

I think the majority find it quite disgusting that someone can tell you what to do with your own property!  How flipping dare they but dare they do!

Of course should anyone question then the obvious answer would be that those staying are friends/relatives of the owner. I hate asking people renting my property to do this as it does suggest that something naughty or under hand is going on and why should they be put on the spot?

This is not a reason not to buy so please do not let me put you off as that is not my intention. It is just helpful to go in with your eyes wide open and be aware. BL's idea might just be the right one for you. Good luck!  :)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: spaceward on September 22, 2014, 13:34:55 PM
I received an interesting email over the weekend from an Estate agent I have been dealing with. It goes something like....

" Just an update on the properties you have requested details of " .

The updated details on all 4 properties I have enquired about all now contain phrase's like...

"These apartments hold a Tourism license, have a reception in the building and therefore offer a great investment opportunity! "

" The property is situated within a well maintained residential block , suitable for long term rental "

I also noticed an increase in property prices " reduced for a quick sale "

I'll be keeping a beady eye on things before my visit in October.



Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on September 22, 2014, 13:39:11 PM
Very interesting. I had heard that if buildings have a reception area a licence could be granted. Not sure about other blocks though. Thanks for keeping us updated spaceward.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: spaceward on September 25, 2014, 13:32:38 PM
Some more "updated info" from an Estate Agent regarding an apartment I enquired about ....................

"In terms of tourist licenses: I fear that you are not going to find an apartment that fits the bill. As a rule, apartments are not granted such a license. It would require the entire community to agree in order for such an application to be considered - I do not know of any cases where this has happened. So the license is something of a red herring. You are right in that it is the hotels that have pushed for more severity on this, but that does not mean that apartments are not still rented out. Indeed in this complex, many owners do rent out (these owners too, albeit infrequently). She says that they get 450 per week in high season and 325 off-peak. "

All in all it seems like the Hotel Companies are calling the shots !

Happy Holidays !
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on September 25, 2014, 22:31:45 PM
Just leading on - my favourite subject - flipping agents!

We have decided to put our villa on the market and would welcome a quick sale due to a major family health problem. We asked a few of the usual to come take a look and were astonished to find that the valuation between the 3 varied by 275,000 euros!!! Were they looking at the same house I wonder? How could they differ so much? Crazy but as expected I suppose!  >:(

Also some said we needed the energy certificate to market others said it wasn't needed and it was just another way of gaining money from you - who is right? Probably both actually. I think it is necessary to have a certificate as part of the sale but I also agree that it is a way of making money from us.  :(
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: spaceward on September 26, 2014, 14:50:42 PM
Well having read a lot, thought a lot and discussed a lot with my Mum and Sister I think we're still inclined to try to get on with our dream of a "place in the sun".

Would some one be so kind as to give me some idea of all the other Taxes , costs, etc involved along side the purchase price for buying a property. I have loads of figures and info but nothing up to date ie 2014

We would be looking to spend between 90,000 and 115,00 on the property. Obviously trying to get as much as possible for the best price.

Thanks again to you all for your comments and help.

Ian
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: tonsyl on September 26, 2014, 16:37:22 PM
With the greatest of respect Ian, I think you need to leave somewhat more in the spending pot for a property in the Pollensa area. You can pick up less expensive real estate in some other area of Mallorca but Pollensa comes in at a higher level.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Eleanor on September 26, 2014, 19:34:08 PM
You may be able to find a one bedroom apartment in perhaps an older block Probably without a pool for that money if you are lucky. Sometimes Pinaret have one or 2 which need to be modernised a little. I think the rule is to allow about 12% on top to cover taxes etc. If it is less than that then you have a bonus. It was always 10% but then taxes and costs increased. Do make sure you use an independant solicitor and not any connected to an agent. I would also suggest that you take a look around to see if you can see any for sale signs or look in the local paper. You may be lucky as agents are charging 5% commission plus IVA so sellers might try to sell privately. Good luck and I hope you find what you are looking for.  :)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Flyer on September 28, 2014, 08:38:35 AM
Ian - Eleanor's 12% is about right. With regard to what you are seeking it really is a case of 'you pays for what you get' however I did note (a couple of years ago) an apartment - apologies for the location description here I should know better! - in the 3 storey blue and white block - over the pub - on the island opposite the Duva apartments. No doubt someone will come along and provide a better description.

I'm in no way saying this would suit you however a 3 bed (small bedrooms, 3rd was more like a box room) on the top floor was €100,000 - pretty noisy at it shared a pool with the bar and the block at that time and the apartment looked a little tired. The advert was in the Bulletin but just out of curiosity I went to look. After viewing I went into the bar and there was the same advert pinned to their notice board.

As I say probably not for you but they were around and may still be.   
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: spaceward on September 29, 2014, 12:15:28 PM
Morning all,

Thanks for all the comments and info. Can I ask ,is the 12% for all things legal , taxes etc or will we be looking at more outlay on top.

As for the property itself, we're really only looking for a 1 bed apartment, maybe with a shared pool and anything else that goes with it. I've seen a few on the internet with different agents at the 100,000 / 105,000 and would hope to knock the price down from that as quite a few properties have been on the market for many many months if not getting on for a year.

Being a keen DIY er I don't mind a bit of painting , decorating etc. I take it that paint , fixings etc are easy to come by ?

Thanks again for all the help.
Ian
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Mary Lorenzo on September 29, 2014, 15:22:10 PM
Hiya Spaceward, I think that the 12% should cover all of the legal necessities (more or less).  A couple of caveats.....in advance of signing purchase papers, do make sure that all previous bills for the property have been paid in full.  I have heard a few stories of new buyers inheriting old electricity bills for example.

If you do decide to go for an apartment which has a shared pool, do be prepared for the shared maintenance costs for your block to be quite a bit more than for a block of apartments which does not have a pool.  Sorry, if that sounds a bit obvious but many people underestimate the costs for keeping a swimming pool in tip top and safe condition.
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Belladonna on September 29, 2014, 15:25:53 PM
Good points. Also, if you have underground private parking, this is treated in the same way as the apartment when it comes to community charges eg you have to pay twice for rubbish collection charges, even though you take rubbish to a communal rubbish bin!  ::)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Mary Lorenzo on October 03, 2014, 09:23:23 AM
Hi Spaceward, here's a nice property which I just spotted on the Talk of the North page.....

http://www.apartmentinpuertopollenca.com/index.htm
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: Bonyslad on October 03, 2014, 16:30:12 PM
Mary makes a very valid point re community charges . For example I pay a fraction of what I did for a fairly large three bedroom apartment in a town centre residential block compared with a modest two bedroom with a pool and garden. Our charges really only cover insurance, lift maintenance and vestibule cleaning. Pools and gardens cost money but that's what you probably need if you want to holiday let.

And watch car parking, in our block they are a seperate legal property hence BDs comments about double rates , rubbish etc. Essential buy for town centre living I'm afraid come high season but not cheap . You would blow a quarter of your budget on this alone .

BL  :) :)
Title: Re: Property Owners Support Group
Post by: spaceward on October 06, 2014, 13:24:55 PM
Hi Mary,

Thanks very much for the link. I think that property is on my Mum's short list as it looks quite tidy and in good order but we'll have to do a bit of haggling over the price .

Thanks again to all for your help.

Regards,
Ian