Author Topic: Rental tax / Residential tourism  (Read 9947 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

tonsyl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2013, 07:38:10 AM »
Thanks Andrew for your input in this situation. Like all laws, someone, somewhere will challenge it in the courts and as Spain is a member of the EU and as such (technically) subject to their laws, I wonder how soon this may be taken to that authority. Interesting times and as you wrote today, in Spain not all people are treated equally under the law. I fancy that some cracks might start appearing fairly soon!

andrew711

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 474
Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2013, 08:59:45 AM »
Too right. Spain introduce taxes and laws that flout general principles. In the case of property, it could even be a human rights matter. If you own property, you should be able to do with it what you wish (within reason). This is certainly a line of argument which some are taking. Santa Margalida town hall, for example, is outraged at the idea that people cannot be permitted the possibility to legally increase their incomes. Unlike, say, the Matriculation Tax on boats, which wasn't driven by any vested interests and only by the desire to raise revenue, the holiday lets situation most definitely has its vested interests, and we all know who they are. It is madness, though. Utter madness.

Eleanor

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1728
Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2013, 14:21:33 PM »
Eleanor


Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, it’s about learning to dance in the rain.

tonsyl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2013, 15:09:39 PM »
Just to inject a light hearted view, we are due to be in PP in October, if the tourist police haven't locked up our landlord! In case they do, is there anything in the new law to stop us pitching a tent on BL's roof and having a fortnight up there, I'm told the views are good. To save BL offering "extras" in the tourist sense, we'll bring a camping stove and our own portaloo!

andrew711

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 474
Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2013, 15:40:55 PM »
Maybe this is the solution. BL's Camping Holidays. A new venture beckons.

To Eleanor's link. It's rather mangled English, but it makes the same point I did previously. Yes, it has been possible to rent properties under the tenancy act without permits for this, that and the other. The issue now is that central government is devolving all responsibility to the regions. The Balearics may have to add some more legislation (or so I was told by a lawyer), but even if it doesn't, arguing a case that a property hasn't been rented "touristically" is going to be that much more difficult now. Really, and regardless of laws, so long as a property doesn't appear on websites or in other media which are obviously for holiday rentals, then the tax/tourist authorities will be none the wiser, unless - and don't put it past people here - there is a denuncia. But owners obviously need to advertise in this fashion. As soon as they do, if there is no permit, then there is potential trouble.


Bonyslad

  • Administrator
  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1990
Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2013, 09:06:09 AM »
Just to inject a light hearted view, we are due to be in PP in October, if the tourist police haven't locked up our landlord! In case they do, is there anything in the new law to stop us pitching a tent on BL's roof and having a fortnight up there, I'm told the views are good. To save BL offering "extras" in the tourist sense, we'll bring a camping stove and our own portaloo!

 Tony,

 Fraid you don't match my entry requirements on the grounds of sex and age . Sure those benches in the Square are pretty comfortable though !!!

 BL  ;D ;D
BonysLad

HEY. YOU. Get off of my cloud ( of wonderful ) !!

Eleanor

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1728
Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2013, 16:35:14 PM »
There is much to say about this subject but one thing which hasn't been spoken about is the knock on effect of all of this. This is serious stuff and will hit all of us property owners. Just think how many properties there are on the market at the moment. The success of PP was built on mostly the British buying in with the view to rent their property out to others wishing to share the wonderful place it is. If those property owners have mortgages which just a few years ago were being given away, they may well need the rental revenue to help pay for those mortgages. Ok it could be argued that a property should not have been purchased on that basis but the fact remains that many were. So these people will have seeen the value of their property decrease and now they are unable to rent too. It might just be easier to walk away. Will Pollensa then become like some areas of the mainland with property not being maintained and possibly just left! The bombs gone off and no one told us!
Also where will this leave business? Many have moved to Mallorca and built a business based on the rental market and property ownership. Again some might not maintain their homes bacause if the lack of money. Cleaning staff and maintenance won't be needed as property can not be let out so they will see their business go bye bye. Plus restaurants and other associated holiday associated business. Holiday rental sites too will suffer as if a renter is not allowed to rent or be on a rental site then there will be no need for them.

The knock on of this is just crazy! None of us who love PP should have a smile on our faces as we will all be hit by this in my opinion. Plus of course how much will our property be worth if this is not challenged? I really feel this is a worry to all whether you rent with or without a licence! Do we want PP to become tired and run down? of course we don't - what the heck can we do about this?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 16:38:20 PM by Eleanor »
Eleanor


Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, it’s about learning to dance in the rain.

Belladonna

  • Global Moderator
  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5286
  • Moderation in all things, especially in moderation
Re: Rental tax / Residential tourism
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2013, 16:51:24 PM »
Totally agree with all you have said eleanor. This could create a long term problem for a quick term financial fix for the island. I am amazed that there have not been even any sympathetic noises from any agency or advertiser. We know they can't do anything at the moment, but it would be good to have some solidarity going on.
After all is said and done, a lot more will be said than done!

My Flickr Photos

tonsyl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2013, 17:09:47 PM »
I know I will get little sympathy for my view but, like all investments, the value of that investment can go up or down. It's totally understandable that people are upset but, business is business and it can go "bottoms up" for no fault of ours. As to the people who went to Mallorca to "climb on the bandwagon", restauranteurs, builders etc., they took a gamble and no doubt if they were prudent and "put a bit aside for a rainy day" they should be able to weather the storm. Let's not forget, it's Spain we are talking about, not Britain and things are different there, maybe not to our liking but different. With the vast amounts of money that the area is attracting from other countries, IF the Brits pull out, they will soon be replaced. Just look at the vast increase in the Chinese traders over the past couple of years, frightening to me but good for others. If I am being totally honest, IF people were renting, other than in accordance with the law, the've had a good innings, now time to pay up and look good. The old British expression of "there's is no defence in law for ignorance" will not wash at the moment. Sorry but that's how I see it.

Belladonna

  • Global Moderator
  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5286
  • Moderation in all things, especially in moderation
Re: Rental tax / Residential tourism
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2013, 17:32:55 PM »
I understand what you are saying tonsyl, and it is perfectly relevant. Can I just say something regarding those who own properties though.  Many bought with the words from agents - Good Rental opportunity. This was what they wanted in order to sell the properties. It is not really the  buyers fault that suddenly the rug has been pulled out from underneath them.  I'm pretty sure, although obviously not certain, that tax is being paid in the correct way. I wouldnt think you can own a property with all the banking it involves, without having to pay tax etc, but I dont know. As for property prices  moving up and down, I would imagine everyone is subject to that where ever they are and you just have to live with it.  Also, it appears these "inspectors" are not giving owners the opportunity to rectify any misunderstood laws that have suddenly come into force. (I am being generous with wording here.)  It appears that although licences are required, you actually cant get them! How do owners cope with that then? The "ignorance" factor ends up being a "mind reading" question!!   I feel worried for everyone included in this, and it will limit tourists access to where and how they want to spend their holidays.

 Perhaps we should all club together and buy and all inclusive hotel!!  I'll run the spa!  ;)
After all is said and done, a lot more will be said than done!

My Flickr Photos

Eleanor

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1728
Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2013, 17:55:06 PM »
What Bella says is right on Tonsyl. The subject of a licence was probably never mentioned before and to be told you need to have one but tough we are not giving you one is not really playing fair. So many apartment owners will be hit hard by this and yes ok life is a challenge and you take the ups with the downs but this is actually playing a little unfair. I don't think anyone actively went to Pollensa to jump- on the band wagon business wise but went with the intention of making the most of things. I know many who have shed blood sweat and tears to make their business work and make a success of building a life for their family in Mallorca. With any business there comes a risk but this is simply a step too far. The goal posts are not even. Ok other nationalities might just take advantage of this situation and take over but is that really what this is about? I think not! This is about a council/government changing the rules to suit themselves after the rules have been made. I return to my original statement - do we want PP to become a run down not maintained place with properties left empty and many people unemployed? I don't think so. A risk is a risk I know but remember it tourism which has made PP and all it offers what it is. No one will want to holiday in a place which is run down with empty properties and restaurants with a feeling of doom and gloom. This is what the inspectors are achieving. The subject of tax as Bella says is probably not an issue here as the vast majority pay it. The subject is one of bullying and making a point and fining people Yes - for their ignorance. The majority of people buying take out and pay lots of money for advice - they have been let down! With the best will in the world you pay your money to obtain all the info you need and still you are cheated! Other nationalities taking over - emm - eastern european perhaps?
Eleanor


Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, it’s about learning to dance in the rain.

tonsyl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2013, 18:41:57 PM »
I cannot fault anybody for standing up for what they believe in but my basic stance is that Pollensa, Mallorca are both parts of Spain, not Britain and as such, have a different law, different way of life and different many things. We do not have a property there, nearly did but took advice from locals who basically said rent, don't buy, that way someone else picks up the grief. If we had bought I wouldn't be worried as to my property value, because I'd be living in it, enjoying the good things that are Mallorca. ( and the bad, but that's another tale) I do not actually know the figures but, based on us, we have rented far more villas than apartments so, peel away the apartments built for rental, Bellamar, Habitat, Flora as examples and the apartments owned and lived in by locals and non renting ex pats, how many apartments will be affected by the new laws in PP and as such, that will affect tourists? OK, some businesses are directed at Brits but, then again, the trend towards other nationals investing in the area has been building up a head of steam for many years so, I would imagine many ex pat concerns would be pretty well geared up to the trend. I have seen signs in Russian in one restaurant (not English owned)
but I use it as an example and I am sure there are others.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 19:05:54 PM by tonsyl »

favie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 605
  • There is no pillow so soft as a clear conscience.
Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2013, 22:28:19 PM »
Have been reading about this change in the law for at least two years, but with current news, trying to understand it all, came across this info:
http://www.seemallorca.com/property/letting/new-reform-on-the-tenancy-act-in-mallorca.html

So it has just, in June '13 came into force? Well, as a tourist to PP who only ever rents apartments and although there are some lovely hotels (NOT A1) that I would consider for a wee week away, never actually have to date, when I come for my annual two/three weeks away I want an apartment....home from home, don't want a hotel for that length of time, want to eat in the restaurants, shop in the supermarkets, drink in the wonderful hotels etc.....so I won't be able to do that now....is that what it means? So confused?
In answer to your question Tonsyl .....I think hundreds, wouldn't want to stay in most you mention, Flora etc....not at my time in life, I want peace were I  stay, family orientated places were  wonderful in the past!! I appreciate been able to rent someone's apt/villa for my holidays.....and worry if this is going to be a thing of the past.
People buy to let in most places in Europe...don't they? Holiday lets......are they going to be a thing of the past in PP.
Quote from Andrew:
  "The new law gives the regions all the power they want to impose whatever law they wish, and as the Balearics have a law, there is now no debate. Apartments - illegal. End of story."
Poor PP....are they mad, it will become a ghost town! Eleanor, makes a good forecast as to what will happen, is this really influenced by the Hotel Owners as I have read....crazy, crazy.
NB.....never seen any influence of Russian's.....maybe there is in busier months, they won't take away that view Tonsly....but it won't be the place you and I know if they do take over! Don't think too many are geared up for it.......as yet!

andrew711

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 474
Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2013, 23:27:21 PM »
Favie, Of course you'll be able to rent an apartment because there will still be many which remain to rent. And probably will still be for years yet. It all boils down to just how tough the inspectorates choose to be. But as Will Besga's article explains, any apartment that is advertised as a holiday rental and offers services is not legal and is defined as being not legal under Balearics law. And most apartments are of course advertised as holiday rentals and do offer services. Will the inspectorates really go after all properties marketed in this way? This is the question. If they don't, then owners will continue to market them, because what other option do they have? Yes, in theory, it might be possible to say that the property has not been advertised, does not offer services and is covered by the Tenancy Act, though I am not entirely sure that even this is going to be possible in future. Even if it were, it is an impractical way for an owner to go about renting a property, hence why I have said that it is largely an irrelevance.


favie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 605
  • There is no pillow so soft as a clear conscience.
Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2013, 00:16:14 AM »
As Will Besga says:

"On first reading, one of the obvious conclusions is that there is now a growing magma of legislation, with the effect of blurring situations and creating confusion"......certainly confused me... :)

So it all depends on how tough the inspectorates choose to be....well lets hope not too tough!

Thank you Andrew.