Author Topic: Rental tax / Residential tourism  (Read 9948 times)

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tonsyl

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Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2013, 18:48:34 PM »
Setting aside the ways and means of bringing the current situation to order, there is a very interesting thread on another forum from an apartment owner in a "residential development" where a number of owners are renting, I assume without legal authority. Puts another view to things and worth reading.

Bonyslad

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Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2013, 22:16:10 PM »
Have read much of this with interest. The lady who bought on the basis of her development being classified as residential would be well within her rights to denounce her fellow illegal renting owners .

 However not only would this bring diversity and set neighbour against neighbour but ironically would expose the whole community to a potential fine ( up to 30,000 euros I believe) and she as a member of that community would suffer equally.

What I think responsible communities will and probably should do to protect themselves is to get owners to agree that commercial letting is forbidden. Of course letting to your Aunt Mabel could always continue , nudge ,nudge , wink, wink. However the advertising of a property in the market place through exposure to an "open market" would be outlawed.

Fraid it's as simple as that. In our block which is designated as residential ( with admittedly no communal pool or garden ) we had to make declaration that short term rentals ( under six months) are forbidden.

Can see this being adopted as the norm more and more which is why the impact on the local economy is potentially damaging.
BL
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 22:22:44 PM by Bonyslad »
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Belladonna

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Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2013, 08:19:33 AM »
I think it is the "hidden law" and the "unobtainable licence" that has caused the uproar.  Many apartments have been, and still are, sold by agents with the wording "good rental income" in order to entice buyers.  IF the apartment block has a "non rental" codicil on it, then all fair and good and "buyer beware" is inplace.  Those owners who are up in arms are those who bought in good faith, and DO pay taxes etc, but may STILL be fined through no fault of their own.  Now that's hardly fair is it?  :(
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andrew711

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Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2013, 08:39:00 AM »
A complex that intrigues me is Bellresguard. Was this built primarily for residential occupancy? Somehow, I don't think it was.

tonsyl

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Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2013, 08:55:39 AM »
I take a slightly different view BD in that I feel many of those up in arms and making much noise are in fact in breach of the laws of the land. However, it has long been custom and practice in Spain (and many other countries) for a "blind eye" to be turned and certain things allowed, maybe with a gentle "greasing of palms" somewhere every now and again. We now see certain individuals in the equivalent of "Her Majestys' pleasure" and probably more will go that way. To say that agents have been pushing sales on the basis of rental opportunities is exactly what has happened in a number of cases, it's part of what they do, sell. Often the target of the sale is someone who loves the resort, jumps first and thinks afterwards. I can only speak for myself but, IF I were to go into a business, such as holiday rental, for a business it is no matter how you look at it, I would seek professional advice as to tax, rates, planning permission in respect of the local laws. It's called "due diligence" I think in big business but applies in this. If Joe/ Josey Bloggs is sitting in UK, dreaming about his/her new apartment/villa, surely, if he/she doesn't take steps to find out what the worst scenario is, he/she is courting with a sharp shock sooner or later. Which is a long winded way of saying that anybody who has been acting outside the law get's what they deserve in terms of punishment for their actions. As to the future, in respect of licences, permits or what you will, sense must prevail and I would think a "cooling period" of 12 months in which all current renters can bring their financial affairs to order and make plans for obtaining some form of licence to operate in the commercial field, not by hiding under the banner of "residential" accommodation. It also demands that the government drops the blanket ban and has a similar period of reflection.

Bonyslad

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Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2013, 09:03:44 AM »
Tonysl,

 Correct me if I'm wrong, Andrew, but apartments will never be granted touristic licences under the current law as it stands.

 For these to be granted proper fire escapes, manned reception areas etc etc have to be provided if I interpret the law correctly.

 Just think Flora, Villa Concha, Playa Oro and you get the picture .

 You can see the hands of the hoteliers all over this , can't you !!

BL  :)
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Belladonna

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Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2013, 09:13:16 AM »
I'm pretty sure I agree with you tonsyl!  The devil is in the detail as they say, but I do agree that if some owners are now found to be foul of the law, they should be given a grace period to rectify this before fines are imposed. Its not like a speeding offence that is obviously flouted after all.  As BL stated in his post, if a block already has it loud and clear that it is residential, then obviously this was indicated when the apartment was bought. (?!) 

As in the UK, there may always be bits and bobs that slip through the net when buying a property and things which are not picked up by various authorities before the property is bought by happy buyers.  But this problem which results in what appears to be immediate heavy fines still seems a little excessive, when there was not way the buyers knew they were acting outside the law!  Ignorance is no excuse I know, but if the law was not applicable at the time of buying, or not advised upon by the authourities who were relied on, then, again, I repeat the childish remark, its just not fair!!  :-\
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andrew711

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Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2013, 09:14:29 AM »
A cooling-off period might be a very sensible idea, which will be why it wouldn't be done.

Apartments have to have certain services that qualify them as tourist apartments. One is, as you say, BL, a manned reception area. The thing is that no residential blocks could qualify, even if the government was minded to let them qualify.

Bonyslad

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Re: Rental tax / Resedential tourism
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2013, 09:51:21 AM »
Ignorance is no excuse I know, but if the law was not applicable at the time of buying, or not advised upon by the authourities who were relied on, then, again, I repeat the childish remark, its just not fair!!  :-\

 Fraid fairness won't come into it Bella

 If I was the owner of the Flora with half empty rooms in April and a lot of folk were advertising apartments on the internet who hadn't jumped through hoops on elf and safety or paid wages for reception staff that's exactly what I'd be saying " It ain't fair !!!! "

 Fraid unless the law get's changed owners are just going to have to bite the bullet and live within it.

 So if you are planning on advertising you need to have your eyes wide open to the consequences .

 Simples

 BL  >:(
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tonsyl

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Re: Rental tax / Residential tourism
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2013, 09:11:20 AM »
Noting all the various comments on the CUG of the forum, where does this leave the holidaymaker who is booked to travel later this year? It is of personal interest to me as well as others. Are the bookings taken to date for the remainder of the season allowed to stand, will the owners be fined if they honour the bookings or has this business just been an information gathering excersize, with the authorities waiting to see what amount of tax is paid next year and if the affected renters advertise for next year?

Eleanor

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Re: Rental tax / Residential tourism
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2013, 09:26:22 AM »
BL I just wonder if the two areas are crossing over here? People decide on private rentals because that is what they want. Others decide they want to have more of a tourist type holiday. The two are different and so can they be compared and one be challenged by the other? The choice is being taken away from the holiday maker and there is nothing to suggest that the people who like to be in a private property will then go running to the likes of say Habitat and all that is offered there. Not everyone wants to be one of a number in a place that may have lots of children bombing around in a tiny overcrowded pool. Or having to be up at the crack of dawn to hunt for a sunbed. We know someone who stayed in such an establishment and had to spend most of thier holiday away from their tiny small roomed apartment as the noise was just too much. Not Habitat but similar!

In my view many won't be heading to Flora, Duva or Pollensa Park but wiill be heading to the likes of say Turkey - this is just a wonderful PR exercise for alternative destinations. Just my opinion of course.  :)
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 09:43:15 AM by Eleanor »
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Eleanor

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Re: Rental tax / Residential tourism
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2013, 09:28:51 AM »
Noting all the various comments on the CUG of the forum, where does this leave the holidaymaker who is booked to travel later this year? It is of personal interest to me as well as others. Are the bookings taken to date for the remainder of the season allowed to stand, will the owners be fined if they honour the bookings or has this business just been an information gathering excersize, with the authorities waiting to see what amount of tax is paid next year and if the affected renters advertise for next year?

Tonsyl - I wondered this myself. This is a hornets nest and such a worry to both sides. Whatever happens it seems impossible to do right for doing wrong!  >:(
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Papillon

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Re: Rental tax / Residential tourism
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2013, 09:46:27 AM »
tonsyl you make some very pertinent  points and I have suspended my web advertisement because I can't guarantee the availability of my apartment next year. I don't want to leave my clients high and dry at the last minute.

I believe rentals for this year will be allowed to stand as most will have been booked before June and no owner could have complied with the requirement in such a short time.

Apologies if this has been said before but I have read so much in the past few weeks my head is spinning.

It is the responsibility of the administrator of the community to ensure that all apartment owners comply with the law. If any property owner is found to be in breach of any legislation it is the responsibility of that community, so any fine would be payable by all of the owners not just the offender. Maybe that is why some of the alleged fines have been so steep.

If this is the case it opens up a whole new can of worms.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 09:52:53 AM by Papillon »

Bonyslad

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Re: Rental tax / Residential tourism
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2013, 10:03:15 AM »
BL I just wonder if the two areas are crossing over here? People decide on private rentals because that is what they want. Others decide they want to have more of a tourist type holiday. The two are different and so can they be compared and one be challenged by the other? The choice is being taken away from the holiday maker and there is nothing to suggest that the people who like to be in a private property will then go running to the likes of say Habitat and all that is offered there. Not everyone wants to be one of a number in a place that may have lots of children bombing around in a tiny overcrowded pool. Or having to be up at the crack of dawn to hunt for a sunbed. We know someone who stayed in such an establishment and had to spend most of thier holiday away from their tiny small roomed apartment as the noise was just too much. Not Habitat but similar!

In my view many won't be heading to Flora, Duva or Pollensa Park but wiill be heading to the likes of say Turkey - this is just a wonderful PR exercise for alternative destinations. Just my opinion of course.  :)

Eleanor,

 Don't get me wrong because I agree with you on this and personally many years ago before I was fortunate enough to buy my own place used a lot of private apartments for the reasons you outline. Was just pointing out that fairness could be looked at from both sides which is why some hoteliers are aggrieved and have been instrumental in bringing about the change of law . This is going to run and run for a while now

 As Papillon says what do you do about taking bookings next year ??

 BL  :(
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Eleanor

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Re: Rental tax / Residential tourism
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2013, 11:40:58 AM »
Whatever is going to happen to our beloved PP?  :-\  Next year will be very interesting. As Papillon says to tkae bookings for next year would be very unfair so where will that leave all those who like to rent a private property? They don't want this hassle  - they just want to book a holiday and get away from all the pressures of everyday life and not walk into a differnt version of it! My worry too would be that once the move is made elsewhere then perhaps they will be lost forever Ok dramatic maybe but lets not forget there are other places out there and the world is much a smaller place. I stand by my earlier comment that this will see apartments left by owners, communities not receiving payments for upkeep, neighbour against neighbour and all sorts of business closing from restuarants to laundry, from taxi service to the lovely little shops offering unique items. Once the hotels etc get hold of the all inc then the money will not be coming into to the resort. Mrs negative I might be and God do I hope i'm wrong but again I feel this is a worry for all  -  those who rent - those who don't - the small businesses and of course the renter themselves.  >:(
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